19-11-2004 22:03									#181
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No - I think that they got Soc Psych from the Gaians this turn and changed to Doc Loyalty, and got that this turn (they did say earlier that they could get it by 2148). Presumably they'll chnage to flex, which we'll send them, then they'll change to Ethical Calculus

	19-11-2004 22:44									#182
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I posted this in the Embassy

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Googlie To: Data Angels This is great news indeed - and we likewise trust that it heralds a strong bond between our factions. Might we presume upon you to send the technology on a pre-accepted basis? Our own tecnology matures this same year and we would like to be able to choose our next with Doctrine: loyalty alreadyu in our possession (our analysts tell me that the one we want to start is our "rogue tech" for our research path, but that Doc Loyalty will then put it in play and create a different "rogue tech". I don't fully understand these tech choice limitations, but I gather that some innovative work has been done by - I believe - Method and Rubin in times past) We, of course, will send Doctrine: Flexibility immediately on return on a likewise pre-accepted basis Thanking you in anticipation (if that's not too presumptious)

	20-11-2004 06:36									#183
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Btw, should we make "half the cost in credits as it would cost you to research in labs" the basic principle for all tech-for-credits deals?

	20-11-2004 06:47									#184
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I didn't realize we were doing so well.

I, in turn with my project, am in a bit of a bind. I'm 35 000 words in, with ample time to get to 50 000, but the novel will not be finished. Partly because it's possibly too long, partly because after this first draft I've gotten way more experienced with my characters (I did very little careful planning before November) and I'm practically itching to get the remaining 15 thousand words done so that I can proceed to rewriting the whole thing. After all, you can't really expect to churn out finished, quality text in such a strict time limit. If I didn't have such a schedule, I'd probably write a bit more sporadically with days of a few hundred words and days of up to ten thousand words, depending on my mood, the part the story is in, inspiration, free time, a multitude of things.

	21-11-2004 05:32									#185
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The Angels have confirmesd that they have send Doc Loyalty to us on a pre-accepted basis

	23-11-2004 09:01									#186
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I posted a "feelgood" in the Embassy:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy To Data Angels: We thank you for the transmission of the Doctrine: Loyalty technology (and congratulate the Data Angels oin the successful completion of The Virtual World - you will be interested to know that as a result the University has changed their focus now to The Merchant Exchange) I confirm that when we move the turn on, the blueprints for the technology Doctrine: Flexibility will be in the diplomatic pouch on a pre-accepted basis It was a pleasure for the Spartan Federation to do business with the Data Angels Sincerely, Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

	10-12-2004 20:30									#188
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I see they have a trade offer in the Embassy:

quote: Posted by Mart in the Embassy To Spartan Federation, We thank you very much for providing us with very valuable information on Planetary Energy Grid. We appreciate your help. This further shows that Morgan Industries become very dangerous menace on the Planet, and closer cooperation between the three factions: Spartan Federation, Gaian Union and Data Angels regarding this issue appears to be required, as previously considered by all three our factions. In response to your offer of exchanging Ethical Calculus for energy credits, we would be interested in trading this technology on unrestricted basis. In more detail, we are interested in not having restriction regarding release of it to the Gaian Union, as the Ethical Calculus is needed for us within our mutual research treaty with Gaians. We would not be interested in releasing this technology to any other faction at this moment. The amount of energy credits the Spartan Federation requests, 500 EC, is though very high considering our present economy. In this regard, we would like to ask the Spartan Federation if you would be willing to trade Ethical Calculus for Adaptive Economics, which we currently already posses. We are very interested in further discussion regarding trade of these technologies. We would like to inquire also if the Spartan Federation would be interested in trading Intellectual Integrity. IT Mart

suggested reply:

While Adapt econ - at some point - will be an essential technology (as it will be blocking other, more needed techs) we currently do not need it as it is not on our line of research for anything at the present.

We are currently researching Int Int (but after our change to Fundy, we now have a -20% reserach penalty). We also have noted your desire for Ethical Calculus on an unrestricted basis

We would be willing to send Ethical Calculus to the Angels provided that the Angels then switched research to Int int and returned that etchnology to us, and also undertook not to build the Citizens Defense Force.

The quid pro quo would be that Ethical calculus would be unrestricted so long as the Gaians, in receiving same, also undertook not to build the CDF

As a result, no energy credits would need to change hands[/b]

Comments

	10-12-2004 21:26									#189
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Brilliant suggestion Googlie, go for it
They will probably want additional sweeteners to that deal though, is there anything else we can add to it except energy credits?

	11-12-2004 01:38									#190
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Great reply.

Btw, I was rather surprised to read the Angel had acquired Adaptive Economics. I assumed that the Angels had researched Doctrine: Loyalty only two years ago, and thus would be unable to research another tech in two years. However then I realized: the Angels can't have researched D:Loy! They don't even have Social Psych yet. Which leads me to wonder: how the hell did they acquire that tech??

As an aside, the Angels not having SocPsych also means they can't be researching EthCalc. This means we'd have to give them another tech as well for them to switch to IntInt.

	11-12-2004 02:11									#191
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Adaptive Economics... Couldn't they have gotten it for free after infiltrations? Could enough AI factions have it? Or AI and other human-controlled factions?

	11-12-2004 04:31									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac However then I realized: the Angels can't have researched D:Loy! They don't even have Social Psych yet. Which leads me to wonder: how the hell did they acquire that tech??

I'm wondering if the Gaians either researched it - or stole it from Yang. They got Soc Psych in 2147, and maybe stole that from Yang and thus were able to change immediately to Doc Loyalty, or stole Doc Loyalty in 2148 and then passed it to the A's

The turn (2148) that the Angels sent Doc Loyalty to us, the Gaians already had it (and they move before the Angels, so the A's presumably got it that year from the G's)

I seem to recall the A's telling us a couple of turns before that they could send Doc Loyalty in 2148, which would mean "directed techsteal " - which we can't do

So I really don't know.

G.

	11-12-2004 04:47									#193
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Embassy reply:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy To: IT Mart While Adapt econ - at some point - will be an essential technology (as it will be blocking other, more needed techs) we currently do not need it as it is not on our line of research for anything at the present. We are currently researching Int Int (but after our change to Fundy, we now have a -20% reserach penalty). We also have noted your desire for Ethical Calculus on an unrestricted basis We are prepared to withdraw our previous prohibition to onward tradimg of Ethical Calculus to the Gaian Union, under the following conditions: We will send Ethical Calculus tand Social Psych o the Angels provided that the Angels then switched research to Intellectual integrity and returned that technology to us, and also undertook not to build the Citizens Defense Force. (You would need to receive Social Psych as well as Ethical Calculus in order for Int Int to appear as a technology choice). Alternatively, we could send Ethical Calculus alone should you wish tio trade with the Gaians for Social Psych The quid pro quo would be that Ethical Calculus would be unrestricted so long as the Gaians, in receiving same, also undertook not to build the CDF In return, we would undertake not to attempt to build the Ascetic Virtues SP And as a result, no energy credits would need to change hands Thus: Sparta >>> Ethical Calculus + Social Psych >>>>> Angels (or Ethical Calculus alone) Angels >>> Intellectual Integrity >>> Sparta Might this be of interest to the Data Angels?

	11-12-2004 06:43									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Adaptive Economics... Couldn't they have gotten it for free after infiltrations? Could enough AI factions have it? Or AI and other human-controlled factions?

As far as we know the Morganites are the only other faction with Adaptive Economics. So that doesn't seem possible I guess.

For your information I uploaded the excel files to check what tech choices a faction will next have. The left column shows what techs each faction has (as far as we know).

Angels

Gaia

Morgan

Sparta

	11-12-2004 08:00									#195
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It's interesting, in the sim update, I filled in all Morgan's techs, but couldn't set current research to adaptive economics - it just didn't come up as a choice!!

	12-12-2004 11:47									#196
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Encouraging response from the Angels:

quote: Posted by Mart in the Embassy Thank you for your message, I have posted this offer for the discussion in our Data Angels forum. Although I cannot decide alone in this matters, this agreement appear to me very beneficial

	17-12-2004 05:28									#197
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This, in the Embassy:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by IT Mart To Spartan Federation, We have discussed your proposal and also contacted the Gaian Union regarding required from them declarations. Gaians agreed for not building Citizen's Defence Force SP. Having their declaration we can continue then with the trade according to your offer. Also we have not traded Social Psych with Gaians, so as you proposed we would need to receive this technology from you. Summarizing all details: 1. Data Angels and Gaians agree for not undertaking building the Citizen's Defence Force SP. 2. Spartans agree for not undertaking building the Ascetic Virtues SP. 3. Spartan Federation transfers Ethical Calculus and Social Psych to Data Angels at the closest turn. 4. Ethical Calculus will not be charged with embargo regarding its transfer to Gaian Union. 5. Data Angels switch their research effort to Intellectual Integrity and as soon as it is completed transfer it to Spartan Federation. Some final comments, as you predicted the research costs among factions after our recent trading quite significantly increased. For this reason we hope to receive the Ethical Calculus as soon as possible, as it is required for us to raise our research output. As we saw, Morganities were able to research a new technology within 6 years, from 2145, when they obtained Progenitor Psych to 2151, when they got Adaptive Economics, according to our analysis. Morganic research output must be tremendous compared to ours then. IT Mart

Yeah!!

To which I replied:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy To: IT Mart The Junta is pleased that this deal is going forward. The technologies of Social Psych and Ethical Calculus will be in the diplo pouch this turn on a pre-accepted basis, and we look forward to receiving Intellectual Integrity in due course. Your comments re: Morgan's tech rate are apt. We ourselves, currently with the tech lead, have a cost of just under 800 lab points per turn, while Morgan lies at just over 400. Even running at 40:20:40 they still produce more than 80 per turn!! (mind you, we have almost 25 technologies now discovered - or acquired - compared to their 14, so the comparison isn't exactly apples and oranges - they are choosing to research internally while we prefer to trade or purloin our techs!!) Lt.-Col. Googlie

(we actually have 22 ................ that's almost 25, isn't it?)

	17-12-2004 11:36									#198
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Good trade
Mind you, who do we hold responsible if the Gaians actually do build the CDF now? It would have been nice to receive some official word from them as well.

And good job with the exaggeration You didn't overdo it so that they wouldn't believe us, but it's still a show of strength needed to continue our bullying.

	17-12-2004 13:37									#199
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Good to hear the deal is there.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie (we actually have 22 ................ that's almost 25, isn't it?)

Good. Keep them wondering what that might be. I'm sure they'll be counting, and trying to figure us out.

	17-12-2004 18:14									#200
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Hey ho, I hadn't expected us to accept the deal without further questions.

I mean, while I of course like the deal , who knows they'll only research that tech in twenty years. Should we not ask when they expect to finish their research, and ask them boost their research as much as possible, by putting it on 60% (or higher, if running Democracy allows them that)?

	17-12-2004 20:36									#201
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I think it's obvious, that they are supposed to fulfill their part of the deal ASAP. If the don't, we can bully them then, no?

	17-12-2004 21:05									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I think it's obvious, that they are supposed to fulfill their part of the deal ASAP.

Not really. Technically they can give us the tech in a 100 years. In a highly competitive game like the ACDG I guess it's better to close all loopholes.

quote: If the don't, we can bully them then, no?

Unfortunately we don't have any ships present near Angel territory.

	17-12-2004 21:18									#203
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See, I told you my ships need guns.

But seriously, if you read carefully what they write, they have agreed to switch research to IntInt ASAP, and they said they want it to be fast. If they don't, I'm sure we'll know, right? It's not like there's only two of us, so making themselves untrustworthy wouldn't be so clever, IMO.

Besides, we'd probably have to pay the Morgans even more, and they already fear us enough, to certainly try and stall the research...

	17-12-2004 22:55									#204
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Actually, we soon will have a ship in their waters.

We're backtracking the Invincible (down south by Gaian lands) to pop that pod, then we're sending her round the southern coast of LaLaland where it'll sail up the channel between Lal and the Angels - and as we have the PK maps naturally we'll hug the Angels coastline and map that as we go - so I'm sure we'll drop anchor in a bay or 2 by their bases

	18-12-2004 04:22									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (we actually have 22 ................ that's almost 25, isn't it?)

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Good. Keep them wondering what that might be. I'm sure they'll be counting, and trying to figure us out.

I added "Commander of the Spartan Air Force" to my signature. Should keep them wondering if they notice it.
And I'm not even lying!

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 But seriously, if you read carefully what they write, they have agreed to switch research to IntInt ASAP, and they said they want it to be fast. If they don't, I'm sure we'll know, right? It's not like there's only two of us, so making themselves untrustworthy wouldn't be so clever, IMO.

Yeah, I'm most likely being a bit too careful having last ACDG's PEACE in mind.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Actually, we soon will have a ship in their waters.

	18-12-2004 05:03									#206
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I might have some bad news regarding the IntInt trade.

I checked whether the Angels would be able to select Intellectual Integrity as their next tech choice, and if I got their technology level right, they won't.



Sorry I didn't check this earlier. As the Angels took a long time to respond, I assumed it wasn't urgent and that they would try to barter and renegotiate the deal a bit before it became final.

Hmm, I reread the last few posts and I noticed I was the one who suggested they needed a second tech to make this deal work - link. Perhaps I was thinking they were researching SocPsych?

So I have no idea how the Angels will switch to Intellectual Integrity. We'd need to know what technology they are researching and possibly give them that.

Perhaps we could send a reply to them like this?

"On receiving your latest message, our social analysts have reviewed the possibility of this deal and it seems we made a mistake. If we have estimated your number of technologies correct, you will be unable to choose IntInt as your next research project (due to the mod3 rule). Can you confirm this?

If so, a possible solution might be to give you Ethical Calculus alone this turn. Then you could switch to IntInt, and after you switched to IntInt we could provide you Social Psych. In this scenario you would have to switch out your current research project though, and lose half of your currently accumulated labs.

Another scenario could be we giving you whatever technology you are researching now (for a compensation) so you don't lose labs.

Or perhaps you already had another scenario planned with the Gaians - that's of course also possible.

In any case we hope to find a solution soon. Is it mandatory we provide you our technologies now already, or do we have some breathing room to figure things out should we not find a solution within our time limit?

By the way, may I ask for an estimation as to when you could research Intellectual Integrity, after being provided Ethical Calculus and I assume boosting your research expenditure?"

	18-12-2004 05:27									#207
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If they agreed to go for it, I assume they have the required prequisites, or will have soon. Whether by trade with others, or by own research by the Angels - what do we care? We paid, we await technology in return, and soon.

Or else... Mind you, they don't know how far we are from invading them. We just started to kick Zak around, so who knows what else we can do, and where the rest of our forces is... Or do the Angels know any facts?

	18-12-2004 06:22									#208
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Maniac:

Just to clarify,

1) - If the Angels are currently researching Ethical Calculus, and we send it to them (just that for now) will they then be able to change to Int Int? (and then we could send Soc Psych next turn, as that was part of the agreed deal)

2) - If they are currently researching Social Psych and we send them that plus Ethical Calculus, they will not see Int Int as a tech choice unless we send them a 3rd tech (such as SotHB?)

3) - If they are currently researching Social Psych, and they change to EthCalc and we then send them that, will Int Int appear as a choice for them? (and almost certainly they'd want compensation in cash otr tech for the lost lab points over and above getting Soc Psych the next turn from us

If all the above are true, then I'd favour # 2 - give them another tech, as we certainly can't afford the ec's equivalent of 2 or 3 lost research years.

I'd assume that they'd balk at a lenghty embaro on onward trading of that 3rd tech, so Secrets is, IMO, the one we least care about going to the Gaians.

	18-12-2004 06:50									#209
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If we're right that the Angels have 14 techs right now, then yes your two first points are correct. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with the third point. If you want to know whether the Angels could select EthCalc after being given SocPsych, then the answer is 'no'.

quote: as we certainly can't afford the ec's equivalent of 2 or 3 lost research years.

I think we can make a decent case that we shouldn't be held responsible for any labs lost due to them having to switch research.

After all, it should be their responsibility to check whether IntInt would appear as a research choice for them, not ours. (Probably they didn't check this - AFAIK few people use Minute Mirage's tech choice simulator.) They should bear the consequences if they make deals without knowing whether they can fulfill them.

Also in point IT Mart says:
"5. Data Angels switch their research effort to Intellectual Integrity and as soon as it is completed transfer it to Spartan Federation. "
So who knows they were already planning to switch research, thinking that acquiring EthCalc is worth more than saving half their acculumated labs (which shouldn't yet be much).

	18-12-2004 07:02									#210
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It prolly makes more sense for you to handle the mechanics of this one then, as you're on top of the subject matter, if you don't mind entering into techtrade negotiations midway

That way if they are unclear about how the mod 3 spreadsheet works you could walk them thru it - it'd be useless my trying (although I must play with it to see what's what)