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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:21
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The latest from Morgan:
quote:
A question I have regarding this deal would be as to why go through the trouble to have us research I.I. when the Federation itself seems positioned to research it right now? Have the Spartan researchers been so swamped that it would take more than a few turns more than the Morganite researchers, making outsourcing worthwhile? The Hive does indeed have a considerable army ready, but its going to take us time for us too research I.I. as well. Will the Federation have the crawlers ready when the tech is? If need be, the Federation could pay the Corporation extra to jack up its research really high to get I.I. faster.
I think it will cost more than Social Psych and D loyalty for the Corporation to research I.I. RIGHT NOW. I wonder if it is more than the Federation is willing to pay? I think that will be considered a rip-off by the Federation. Alternatively, there are some forms of compensation other than tech. I, for one, would be interested in neural grafting instead of Social Psych. It will probably be necessary to add some EC on our end to balance out that trade. I am mentioning this, because we don't have an answer now, but it would be worth mentioning to the Federation something. The Federation may wish to just sit back and see what we decide.
Note that the infiltration has delayed an answer to the I.I. research proposal acceptance.
Long term hostility to the V.E. incident is unlikely, but the Corporation has not yet decided how to resolve the issue. We'll resolve this issue faster than any I.I. tech deal.
It is worth noting that the holidays will be upon us soon, and many of our VPs are looking forward to spending some of their hard earned money at our many luxury spas soon. I think Mead has already left, but may hold small conferences via holophone. |
They're trying to get more out of the deal obviously, and let us pay more than SocPsych & DocLoy.
Perhaps our reply to a few points of them could be like this?
quote:
A question I have regarding this deal would be as to why go through the trouble to have us research I.I. when the Federation itself seems positioned to research it right now? Have the Spartan researchers been so swamped that it would take more than a few turns more than the Morganite researchers, making outsourcing worthwhile? |
As we have gone Fundamentalist with the 20% research penalty, we have chosen to minimize our research effort and focus instead on credits. As a consequence of this choice, while we are indeed researching IntInt ourselves right now, it would be more efficient and faster if the Corporation - without a research penalty - would research Intellectual Integrity.
I guess it wouldn't be good for our bargaining position if we told them it would take us 90 years to research IntInt.  Better let it appear it's a 'choice' not to research IntInt ourselves.
quote:
but its going to take us time for us too research I.I. as well. Will the Federation have the crawlers ready when the tech is? If need be, the Federation could pay the Corporation extra to jack up its research really high to get I.I. faster. |
I guess within six years would be the time we have the crawlers and credits to build the CDF. So AFAIK for the SP getting IntInt faster wouldn't make a difference I guess.
quote:
I think it will cost more than Social Psych and D loyalty for the Corporation to research I.I. RIGHT NOW. |
I'm wondering, is this sentence a continuation of their line of thought to speed up research of IntInt, or are they trying to make us pay more for IntInt even when they don't speed up research? In case of the latter, perhaps a reply like this?
May we inquire to the reason why it would cost more than SocPsych & DocLoy to research IntInt? According to our analists you'd be able to select IntInt after being provided SocPsych & DocLoy.
quote:
Alternatively, there are some forms of compensation other than tech. I, for one, would be interested in neural grafting instead of Social Psych. It will probably be necessary to add some EC on our end to balance out that trade. I am mentioning this, because we don't have an answer now, |
Hmm, perhaps tell them that in the near future we would certainly be willing to leapfrog with them towards Neural Grafting (by providing them SoTHB for example), but right now we wouldn't be able to give them Neural Grafting, for the same reason that we are asking them to research IntInt: we have chosen to slow down our research since we're running Fundy?
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Snoddasmannen
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quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
But what is puzzling is:
Sparta >>> Morgan Soc Psych, Doc Loyalty and Neural Grafting
Morgan >> Sparta Int Int plus xxx ec's
Seems odd |
As I see it they're basically saying that they want Neural Grafting vs. xxx ec's amended to the trade. Makes sense to me, or am I missing something?
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
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Basically we now know exactly, what tech they want badly. And obviously they feel they can pay for it (i.e. they have cash stored, or can make enough).
It looks like this to me:
1. We either trade straight, with both factions getting the techs they need (want, whatever), in which case they'd have to pay to even the deal out (Or they feel in advantage in such a deal, so they think they need to pay more - but it's not likely, they are Morgan after all).
2. Or, they research Int Int for us (so to speak), but that will cost us more than standard price (because only we would be getting the tech we want).
Too bad they weren't fooled long enough by our probe, and their own panic. Oh well.
Last edited by Modo44 on 09-12-2004 at 01:39
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:21
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Well, we should offer Ecol Eng - they'll probesteal it from Zak pretty soon anyway, so we might as well get brownie points for giving it them
(Unless they are mentioning Neural Grafting as a way to extract Secrets from us - they have lost 4 colony pods - to mindworms I imagine - and trancing them will let them survive 1 attack)
And I'd gift it instead of charging (as part of the 3 techs for Int Int package) - after all, they don't need Social Psych so long as they stick to size-3 bases. I imagine they've changed to it just as a "holding mechanism" while they deliberate on our proposal and discuss how to extract maximum advantage from us. It's no biggie for them next turn to change and lose 1/2 research points - their next tech would be in 5 turns versus 4, ho hum
We need Int Int. (We also need NG, plus D:AP for MMI and the Cyborg Factory)
Last edited by Googlie on 09-12-2004 at 21:14
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:21
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Suggested edits to Maniac's proposed response to arginine (my bold italics):
quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
As we have gone Fundamentalist with the 20% research penalty, we have chosen to minimize our research effort and focus instead on credits. As a consequence of this choice, while we are indeed researching IntInt ourselves right now, it would be more efficient and faster if the Corporation - without a research penalty - would research Intellectual Integrity. For example, even running Democracy and Free Market, and maximizing laboratory output, it would be 20 years until our next breakthrough
May we inquire to the reason why it would cost more than SocPsych & DocLoy to research IntInt? According to our analists you'd be able to select IntInt after being provided SocPsych & DocLoy.
Indeed you have a point. Our analysts are now telling us that our passing to the Corporation of Social psych and Doc: Loyalty would not be enough - Int Int would not appear as a research choice for the Corporation. Accordingly we would also be willing to pass to you either the technology of Ecological Engineering or Secrets of the Human Brain (either of which would be sufficient to produce Int Int as a research choice for the Corporation)
Hmm, perhaps tell them that in the near future we would certainly be willing to leapfrog with them towards Neural Grafting (by providing them SoTHB for example), but right now we wouldn't be able to give them Neural Grafting, for the same reason that we are asking them to research IntInt: we have chosen to slow down our research since we're running Fundy?  |
(And should Kass now resume diplo duties, or should I reply to Argenine - or Maniac)?
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:21
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My sense is that they'll back off doing Int Int for us - if they think we're just 9 to 12 turns away, for example, what's the hurry in getting it in 6 from them
They'll have yang infiltrated by now, and wills ee how strong he is. They'll reckon (correctly) that we need D:AP before we take him on (and maybe even not then if by then he has fusion, chaos and silksteel)
I'm thinking (as I build the Morgan part of our sim) that they're researching Soc Psych, not to help us leapfrog, but rather as they've reached the boundaries of their horizontal expansion and are about to switch to vertical.
They don't need us at all, whereas we need them desperately - at least until we get the 6 university bases with their network nodes in our hands
So I don't see any downside in telling them we're a couple of decades away from our next tech until the others catch up in # techs (and in that light, maybe we shouldn't probe Env econ until we have somethign we can use it on - we're not (yet) going for tree farms, nor are we going to raise/lower terrain and we're nowhere being hampered by the energy restriction)
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
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The simple question, rephrased: Can Yang kill us, if left alone for a while?
It seems to me, this AI is just about big enough, to be more than just a punching bag between humans. Instead, he might be a tool. Is it too late to think that way? Is it possible that his inevitable losses (concerning unit count) will make him talk to us? After all, he's in position to seriously cripple the Gaians and Morgan, even if they win the wars in the end (if they win...). The question (the same one) is, can we afford to let him do the job (for us, so to speak), or can we not? I don't know enough about our situation, that's why I ask you.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:21
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How about posting a reply like this in the "Where do we go from here? - After the Spartan Probe" thread in the embassy? Should it be made to sound less unfriendly, or is it ok somewhat like this?
As the Corporation has indicated they do not consider infiltrating a faction an acceptable action during a treaty, as we have compensated the Corporation for the loss of the attorney, yet since the Corporation has two Gator Boats located in the ocean we share, one of which is hugging our coasts, the Junta feels we are entitled to ask you the following questions:
How will we be given assurances that future unfriendly acts will not be conducted against the Federation?
How can we continue an association with the Corporation unless we have clear promises from the Corporation that no Morganic units will approach our borders (to be within striking or infiltration distance of our cites or territory) without prior notice to the Junta? How can we continue association with the Corporation without a clear promise from the Corporation that no hostile military actions be taken agains the Federatio?. How can we continue any association with the Corporation without a clear promise from the Corporation that no probe actions be carried out that are directed against or are detrimental to the Federation?
In light of these developments, we would like to request you to withdraw your Gator Boats back to your side of the ocean, and not to send any probes in our direction in the future, unless with prior permission.
The Federation would like to inform you that any Morganic ships in violation of this request will be treated as declared under the Modo Doctrine, which should soon be announced publically in the next Phalanx.
Lt-Colonel Pedro 'Maniac' Riveira
Commanding Officer of the Spartan Kel
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
The simple question, rephrased: Can Yang kill us, if left alone for a while?
It seems to me, this AI is just about big enough, to be more than just a punching bag between humans. Instead, he might be a tool. Is it too late to think that way? Is it possible that his inevitable losses (concerning unit count) will make him talk to us? After all, he's in position to seriously cripple the Gaians and Morgan, even if they win the wars in the end (if they win...). The question (the same one) is, can we afford to let him do the job (for us, so to speak), or can we not? I don't know enough about our situation, that's why I ask you. |
I don't know. The ACDG was set up without any inbuilt AI preferences or aversions towards certain human factions, so in theory everything should be possible as long as we're creative enough. 
Getting on a good page with Yang might of course require us to run Police State. Two questions/problems here are of course: 1) Is Police State currently the most beneficial government for us? 2) We can't know for sure whether us going Police State would please Yang sufficiently to eg pact and do whatever we want.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
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I don't know about economy choices, because I still don't have SMAX to check for myself. I'm used to Police State, because of playing the Hive all the time (it basically stays selected throughout the game), but it looks pretty dangerous for other factions. The efficiency hit might be too big for us to handle, given the already slow production.
For now, I think we should concentrate on making an everlasting impression on Zak. After that is done, we can consider less effective economy settings, to favor our diplomacy.
quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
All in all, sitting polishing our gunbarrels has some merit to it, no? |
Yes, especially if you make sure everyone watches. Even more so, if you fire that gun once in a while, like we just did. 
* Modo44 bursts out in diabolic laughter *
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06-12-2004 18:42
I had forgotten about that.
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