25-10-2004 00:22									#211
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quote: originally posted by Kasiopeia I should post a "what? you think we've been intent on invading you? we're shocked."

Or maybe:

While it's true that Googlie and his pro-Morgan colleagues are not in the Junta's driving seat right now, we're shocked that you'd even think that we were contemplating invading you

(Then I can PM to arginine - who seems to be maybe leading the pro-Sparta wing of the Morgan faction - and say:

Guys, you've gotta throw me something to work with. I can't advocate dealing with you if all we get is stonewalling and griping about prior deals. Offer something for Gene Splicing at least, and let me get my influence back among the fencesitters on the Junta

That might net us a handful of credits, or a lowly tech, and then our only loss would be if the Gaians traded it to the Angels after the embargo expoired

	25-10-2004 02:23									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Or maybe: While it's true that Googlie and his pro-Morgan colleagues are not in the Junta's driving seat right now, we're shocked that you'd even think that we were contemplating invading you

Don't even bother. I feel that they're throwing up a front to their own paranoism.

quote: (Then I can PM to arginine - who seems to be maybe leading the pro-Sparta wing of the Morgan faction - and say: Guys, you've gotta throw me something to work with. I can't advocate dealing with you if all we get is stonewalling and griping about prior deals. Offer something for Gene Splicing at least, and let me get my influence back among the fencesitters on the Junta That might net us a handful of credits, or a lowly tech, and then our only loss would be if the Gaians traded it to the Angels after the embargo expoired

That sounds good to me.

	25-10-2004 15:35									#213
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Hmm.

So I'm thinking, maybe we should accept 6*15 ECs after all? We'll get their binding agreement NOT to build the CDF, which means the Builder-est faction is not a competitor any longer. OTOH, it does give them a big advantage vis-à-vis pop booming and efficiency.

	25-10-2004 15:40									#214
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HAH! Arginine deleted his remark. Which means that quotation Googlie has is worth a gazillion. I'm going to use it as leverage in the EthCalc negotiation. And now's the time for Googlie to throw the "give me a bone here" speech in.

	25-10-2004 19:02									#215
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I see that Mead has replied:

quote: Posted by Mead in the Embassy Lt Col Kassiopeia Morgan and I enjoy working with you. The reason why we don't want to pay too much for EC is because, accepting your terms, we will be unable to build the CDF or, even worse for us, make money off trading it to other factions. Maybe it's worth more than 6 EC per year for 15 (with your terms), but not 10 per year for 15. Please let me know what you think.

And in the context of their initial response:

quote: Posted by Mead in the Embassy on Oct 22nd Thank you for your offer to sell us EC. We would like to purchase it, but considering the restrictions you are placing on its use or subsequent transfer we would like to pay 90 EC. We offer to purchase it (with the restrictions you impose) for 6 EC per year for 15 years. If you accept, please post your acceptance and send it to us preapproved. Please note that this offer, of course, will no longer be available if we acquire EC from another supplier

It seems that a deal is possible. Stopping them from getting the CDF is now imperitive (if they're planning on 100 size 3 bases)

The onward trading objection is just a red herring - they know we have everone else's commlink and the likelihood of us not having done so is remote, by the time the embargo lifts

It's going to take them awhile to meet the Gaians and Angels (heck, we haven't even met them yet - unless Yang sells their commlinks (and the Gaians/Angels won't be able to steal them from Yang, as commlinks aren't something that can be stolen from the AI by another human player) and Yang isn't talking much these days.

Maybe there's a compromise of 12 ec's for 10 years with a comment like:

We understand your point of view, and are prepared to compromise somewhere between our 2 positions. Slightly more energy credits in return for a shorter embargo period.

Would this be acceptable to you?

Let's not forget the importance of EC to them, followed by GS. Now that they've got the PTS and instant size=3 bases, why make it easier for them to grow beyond that by giving them EthCalc (Dem, with its +2 growth and creches) or Gene Splicing (lifting the nutrient restrictions to facilitate that growth).

Right now, a new base of theirs starts at size 3, with 2 instant drones if no scout unit, so they have to convert a worker to a doctor to offset 1 drone (their HGP gives a talent that offsets the other) With nut restrictions in place, they're immediately hampered as to where they can plop that base. And without DEM, it's growth is limited (but that may not be a concern if they're using the Kody manoeuver to build 3 CP's in succession for further expansion.

So it is a crucial tech for them as regards the strategy they've adopted

(and in the meantime I can do my "throw me a bone" e-mail to arginine)

	25-10-2004 19:56									#216
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quote: (and in the meantime I can do my "throw me a bone" e-mail to arginine)

Please do.

Thanks for the description. This is definitely a tech we mustn't let go for too easy. (Of course, someone else WILL research it, so we mustn't overdo it either.)

8*15 credits? Or maybe offer them both 10*12 and 8*15 and let them decide. And throw in the shorter embargo, yes. Eight years perhaps? Or five? we'll just have to hurry with the other possible EC sales.

	25-10-2004 20:12									#217
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Here's what I sent Argy:

quote: PM sent by Googlie to arginine Arginine: In the Spartan team I'm known as the leader of "the pro-Morgan wing" - partly, I guess 'cos I came over from the original Morgan team (before the private 'Poly forums were set up) and partly 'cos I've been the strongest advocate of closer relations with Morgan. (I had a plan - shot down - that would have seen both our factions leapfrog to both the EE techs by 2150). I also was advocating a deep pact, as my e-mails to Chaunk and jtsisyoda testify. I sense from your Embassy posts that, if there is such a thing as a "pro-Sparta wing" in the Morgan team, that you are active in it, henece this missive to you. We need to make something happen between our factions. - I sense that there's a deal there for Ethical Calculus somewhere between Kassiopeia's offer and Mead's counter - and with it, and DEM's plus 2 growth, those size 3 bases (with the PTS) can self-sustain even if they are doing nothing but churning out fresh colony pods. (But of course, you need the nut restrictions lifted as well - that's where Gene Splicing comes in. ) But to get myself re-instated as a co-leader with Manaic (who's the self-styled "leader of the pro-Gaian wing") you guys need to throw me a bone to get a deal done and maybe get a pact back on the negotiating table. Something like Ind Econ and 120 ec's in exchange for Ethical Calculus (but you won't build the CDF and I'll try and get the term down to 10 years or lower) and Gene Splicing (there'd be no embargo on that one as everyone else seems to have it) That could happen this current turn (the 120 could be in instalmenys, I'm sure - 15 for 8, 12 for 10, 10 for 12, etc - something like that) and it'd go a long way towards me getting back my leadership role with the Junta. How about it? Googlie (re-instated to Lieutenant after a successful covert ops mission - piecing together a decent "jigsaw" map from all the infiltratiuon data re bases)

They don't have a lot of time left for their turn (24 hours maybe), but let's see what that throws up

G.

	25-10-2004 22:31									#218
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Googlie:

Correction to your post about the PTS.

It also gives them one less drone per base at size three and under. So with the HGP they don't need any police at all, let alone a doctor, and not even a recreation commons is required! All of this even in FREE MARKET.

100 size 3 bases is somewhat an exageration, but 90 would be closer to what can be done.

	25-10-2004 23:32									#219
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Googlie: It also gives them one less drone per base at size three and under. So with the HGP they don't need any police at all, let alone a doctor, and not even a recreation commons is required! All of this even in FREE MARKET.

Good point, KK (I'd totally forgotten about that aspect of the PTS)

If they have enough land, then it's an awesome strategy - oodles of size-3 bases!!

(No reply from Argy yet, btw)

	26-10-2004 00:58									#220
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I used that in my first win as Morgan. Had the PTS and HGP. It was SMAC, so I couldn't pop-boom. I had, gotta be; 30 bases at size 3. My HQ was size 4 (had a rec commons and holo thaeter there). I ran all kinds of SE choices. DEMO - FREE MARKET - WEALTH when I was in peace and diplomatically isolating the player factions from each other (I mention this, cause my diplomacy is my second strongest weapon in MP games, without it - I couldn't have acieved the following). FUNDY - GREEN - WEALTH while I was building a military and probing in skirmishes. I never got infiltrated (and people tried), only one who knew what I was up to was the Planetary Governor, but I had convinced him that I could never be a threat to him, as he had size 14 bases. That I would be foolish to think that I could ever be a threat to him. Once I probed away DAP myself, I immediately started building 30 (4-1-10's), they only require 2 rows. Took me 4 turns to have about 60 of them and some sundry interceptors that I huried. I then went back to DEMO and went 100% energy, while I was staging my a/c and formers in forward positions. The others were busy squabbling amongst themselves (as I had planned), and never considered the "funny little" Morgan guy as a threat. Back home, I started building 6X-1-10's in my little factories that were monster producers for their size (sorry Maniac and Zeiter, but I didn't have any farms ). Told the Planetary Governor that I was gonna hit the Believer guy, and he should hit the Spartan guy. I went the turn before him, and sent my a/c out of my bases - so he couldn't tell that I was doing otherwise. I switched to FUNDY - GREEN - POWER. As soon as he turned on Sparta, I turned my a/c around in mid flight, and suicided on every base I could reach. My probes all came in to his coastal bases the same turn, and I lifted a land bridge to his continent on the same tuen as well. Now my army started rolling in.

Crap, this is a long story - sorry.

Any way. Just goes to show the strategy of lots of little bases with the HGP and the PTS. Coupled with shrewd diplomacy...

	26-10-2004 02:33									#221
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Holy crap. I wonder if we should tell this to the Gaians and Angels too ?

	26-10-2004 02:57									#222
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Only if we want all 3 of us to "gang-tackle" Morgan.

To me, it just makes it all that more imperitive that we get Morgan infiltrated ASAP.

	26-10-2004 04:31									#223
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Nothing happening on the trade front (are we officially going to get back to Morgan on their latest Embassy post * - or wait to see if my PM draws any kind of response from Argy?)

* - referring to this:

quote: Posted by mead in the Embassy Maybe it's worth more than 6 EC per year for 15 (with your terms), but not 10 per year for 15. Please let me know what you think.

If we want to have anything inititated by them (ec's payment, tech trade) they've only a few hours left - otherwise it'll be on our watch

	26-10-2004 04:51									#224
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I really can't decide either way.
I have feelings both for AND against this.


Do what you want on this. Or do what you feel is best for our faction. I won't complain (not publicly).

	26-10-2004 06:09									#225
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I'm really ambivalent too.

We'll have Doc Init in 2149, then we'll try to instabuild the MCC that year (I'll need to run our sim to see what we need by way of crawler upgrades in addition to the 2 AA's. I'll do it under 2 scenarios - with 2 AA's, then with 1 (keeping one back to kickstart the CDF if ever we get to building it)

What'll we change to in 2149? We know that Lal is currently researching HEC, so we can get that from him. All we really need is Doc Loyalty. Unless Yang traded it before he started the Command Nexus, then the Gaians won't have it (they just got Doc Mobility, one of its prereqs, from us last turn) The Angels don't yet have Doc Mobility, and while Morgan might have been able to have a run at Doc Loyalty after researching Doc Mobility, we know that he went for Doc Flex instead. And neither Zak nor Lal have it.

So any other techs we get right now will just push further back our research rate towards Loyalty and Int Int. (Of course, Morgan might right now be researching Doc Loyalty ..........)

But on balance, unless we want to be offered EE2, which does need Ind Econ as a prereq, I'm almost on the point of saying "A plague on all your houses. Come talk to us in 2160"

Of course, that stance will net us nothing else for Gene Splicing

So maybe the mandate for our Commanding Officer, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs, should be to get what he can from Morgan and the Angels for Gene Splicing before the Gaians embargo lifts, but take everything else off the table?

	26-10-2004 10:23									#226
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quote: So maybe the mandate for our Commanding Officer, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs, should be to get what he can from Morgan and the Angels for Gene Splicing before the Gaians embargo lifts, but take everything else off the table?

Alright. 'Everything else' includes EE, then? But what about keeping CDF out of Morgan's hands? I could suggest them 8*15.

I'll do the GS<->SocPsych suggestion to the Angels when I get back from school (three hours from now ).

	26-10-2004 11:44									#227
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(to the Angels' deal)

(If the Angels bite, then at least we'll have both prereqs (Mobility and Soc Psych) to research Doc Loyalty ourselves_

And I see that Morgan has asked for a counter offer:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda Sorry if our team as a whole is a little inexperienced with diplomacy... enough to cause hiccups, anyway. Please understand we're trying our best to cooperate in a way that helps us both equally, which in the end benefits us both the most. I'm talking about fairness. So in the interest of seeking fairness, please make a counteroffer regarding Eth Calc. We respect your belief that it's worth more than 6 ec/turn for 15 turns, and we'd like to find a middle ground. -COO Yoda

So maybe something along the lines of:

We appreciate your willingness to establish a fair price for Ethical Calculus, and we suggest that the following might be an acceptable compromise for both our factions:

The Corporation supplies to the Federation the technology of Industrial Economics, pays an annual licence fee of 8 energy credits for 15 years for the use of Ethical Calculus, and undertakes not to trade it to third parties for a period of nine (9) years. Furthermore, the Corporation undertakes not to build the Citizens' Defense Force

In exchange, the Federation will supply to the Corporation the technologies of Ethical Calculus, with the no-trade embargo reduced from our original fifteen (15) years to nine (9) years, and Gene Splicing, with no restrictions on forward trading as regards this latter tech

I don't know if we want to go as far as to add:

If this is accepted to Morgan, I believe that my Junta colleagues could be persuaded to explore a joint initiative towards securing Ecological Engineering and Environmental Economics for both our factions

	26-10-2004 12:49									#228
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I can add it. I can always go back on it and say "the Junta didn't go along with my idea, sorry about that."

	26-10-2004 18:18									#229
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Visited the Embassy and saw the post

	27-10-2004 17:54									#230
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I'm assuming that we have a deal?

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Mead To summarize: Our Offer We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF. You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years, and your commitment to never build the PEG. If you agree, please send both Techs to us preaccepted and post a response here confirming your acceptance.

	27-10-2004 18:58									#231
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: your commitment to never build the PEG.

AFAIK that's never been even a distinct goal for us, so if it makes them happy,

I'd like to hear from the other Junta members too though, but I am going to default to accepting it if I don't hear from Maniac/Krysias/Zeiter/Snoddasmannen etc. within a reasonable time - so if you are going to post the turn soon, you can preaccept the technologies as far as I am concerned.

	27-10-2004 19:07									#232
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Naw - I'm off to my last game of golf with my Vancouver buddies before I head south to the desert sun in Caliufornia, so I'll prolly look for responses in (my) early afternoon then send it on its way

(They've kinda hoisted us with our own petard re: the embargo - I wanted to trade Ind Econ to Zak before he researched it (9 years, would you believe) so that he'd have something jucier for our next probe mission. Now we have to co-ordinate with Morgan if we want to move earlier agaisnt Zak re probes (ie get their permission to waive the embargo, trade with Zak, pass on whatever we get in trade plus, prolly, share the probe results for a modest cost-share by them)

	27-10-2004 19:16									#233
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quote: your commitment to never build the PEG.

This suggests to me that they're prolly going down the Progenitor Psych - Field Modulation - Adaptive Economics (PEG) route

(And prolly explains their lack of interest intitially in Gene Splicing - would just slow down their research) If indeed they are, they must think that they've died and gone to heaven when we show up ofering both Gene Splicing and Ethical Calculus for a pittance

Maybe the Junta should scuttle this trade. With these conditions of theirs it's becoming just:

Ethical Calculus <.....> Industrial Economics
Gene Splicing < ..... > 120 ec's over 15 years

That's pretty lopsided in their favor now

	27-10-2004 19:20									#234
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Time maybe for hardball

Perhaps we say that we were prepared to accept less than we really felt was fair for Ethical Cal (120 versus 150) 'cos we had a potential buyer for Ind Econ, and the ec's we'd receive there would almost make up the difference.

With an embargo on its onward trading, the deal's off

(Still lots of time to renegotiate - and we'll get a sense of how seriously they want EC and GS)

	27-10-2004 19:54									#235
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Hmm, yes. And the PEG clause gave us a good excuse to throw out the trade.

	27-10-2004 20:38									#236
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I wouldn't mind either promising not to build the PEG, but I'd like to get the embargo on IndEcon waved too.

By the way, why do they want the techs pre-accepted this year already? Can't we just offer them in the diplobox without already pressing the "Accept" button?

	27-10-2004 20:59									#237
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By the way, may I suggest a reply like this to thereal_arginine?


In response to Mr. Arginine:

The Junta disagrees with the principle and the calculation of the value of stolen techs.

Regarding the calculation of what's the cost for getting stolen techs, you make several errors. This of course understandable as you have little experience with our method of technology acquisition.

First, in order to steal technology succesful, probe teams with 2 moves are necessary. This increases the cost to 3 mineral rows per probe team.

Second, it costs more than two credits per mineral to hurry a unit, like a probe team. A more accurate exchange rate would be 2.5 to 3 credits per mineral. Not being a builder faction we have no need right now for facilities, so your argument that we should use those credits for hurrying facilities holds no ground when applied to us.

Those two factors already increases the credit cost of a stolen tech (being cheap and assuming a 2.5c exchange rate) to 225 credits.

However that's not including the cost of building the transports necessary to ship the probes to their destination. That's a heavy investment in a period of the game when those minerals can be used for many other useful stuff. If you include that, the cost increases even more...

Besides that we disagree with the simple principle that self-researched technologies would be more valuable than self-stolen techs. They are simply different and equivalent strategies to obtain the same goal. As you have lots of energy, researching them yourselves is the best option for you. As we have less energy but more naval and probe power, stealing them is the best option for us. But we repeat: we do not consider one strategy inferior to another, and the techs obtained by one strategy we do not consider less valuable in trades than techs obtained by another strategy.

	28-10-2004 02:53									#238
	Put an end to popups!

And I'd add:

And in addition, several of the key techs we have available for sale or trade were notacquired through self research nor probe stealing. For example, Gene Splicing was purchased by us, and we traded a tech to the AI for Ethical Calculus (so I guess the latter can be analagous to a self-researched tech)

So it's not quite so simple as comparative costs for stolen versus researched technologies

Last edited by Googlie on 28-10-2004 at 03:31

	28-10-2004 03:32									#239
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Posted in the Embassy (with some accompanying narrative):

SCC Hunter - 2144

Attachment: hunter-2144.jpg
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	28-10-2004 03:58									#240
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Responses to Mead and Arginine posted as suggested.