28-10-2004 04:11									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia AFAIK that's never been even a distinct goal for us, so if it makes them happy

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I wouldn't mind either promising not to build the PEG

I have no objection to this clause - I don't thinbk we evr had designs on it

quote: By the way, why do they want the techs pre-accepted this year already? Can't we just offer them in the diplobox without already pressing the "Accept" button?

Could be that they have Ethical calculus neering completion (in 2145, for example) and want to be able to change immediately to a tech that they'll get that same turn (doc init, ecol eng maybe - althought the latter prolly isn't the case as they know we have it, so why duplicate it)

I think we should put them in the diplo box, pending, and if they gripe say that the Junta had some reservations re Ind Econ's embargo and we couldn't see it as being resolvable before our turn time limit expired (in 8 hours)

	28-10-2004 04:29									#242
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Good post in the embassy, Kass

(I see there's a flurry of activity in the forums by mead and endgame, etc - I guess they are considering how to respond.)

If they come back with the no-trade lifted, do we want to pre-accept or just send it out with the 2 techs still in negotiating stage? (And I bet they counter with the request to share in 1/2 the extra we get for on-trading it !!)

(Actually, if I end it out right now, citing personal time pressures (gotta pack that computer for the drive south ....... which is actually true - it's one of the first things I shove right to the back of the trunk) then technically it'd go before any trade could be finalized)

	28-10-2004 04:56									#243
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quote: If they come back with the no-trade lifted, do we want to pre-accept or just send it out with the 2 techs still in negotiating stage?

Your call. The trade can proceed as far as I'm concerned (if they drop the clause), but I feel uncomfortable about "supplying the goods" before we get the payment.

	28-10-2004 05:43									#244
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OK - that settles it then (I feel the same way, esp after the Gaian experience)

I'm on my laptop now - desktop is all packed up and in my car - so I'll download the endsav from the turn thread and finish and send it out with the trade pending

	28-10-2004 09:41									#245
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I see they've responded with a counter offer (and I lost the bet - they aren't asking to share third party revenue)

quote: Posted by Mead in the Embassy To summarize again: Our Revised Offer assuming the Corporation agrees with what I'm thinking (I really want to make this deal work for us, but I have to check with the Corporation) We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF. You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, DELETED[your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years], and your commitment to never build the PEG ADDED[and your commitment to never build the Ascetic Virtues].

I don't think we had the AV high on our list of priorities, but I hate the way they keep upping the ante

We're doing them a favor, really, giving these 2 techs away for what amounts to 145 ec's (120 over 15 years from Morgan for EC and 25 (prolly) ec's from Zak for Ind Econ.

Plus, our already meager research rate will drop after we add Ind Econ to our list of techs - it's not as though we need it for Ind Auto - or will rush to build energy banks everywhere - or even change to Free Market. We just want it so that we'll get Doc Loyalty as a tech choice, followed by Int Int and the chance to build the CDF. But unless we can steal either we're looking at 4 years to complete Doc Init, 12 for Doc Loyalty and another 12 for Int Int, 28 in all

Although I've ben a strong proponent of a deal with Morgan, it's becoming apparent that it's more and more one sided. They're not exactly pushing ec's our way.

Perhaps we rethink whether we do indeed need the CDF. If we changed to HEC in 2148, then stole it from Lal, we'd see Synthetic Fossils appear as a choice to change to, with Doc:Air appearing after we get that.

Given a choice between building the CDF in 2173, or getting missile weapons in - perhaps - 2160 and Doc Air in the early 2170's, I know where my vote would go (But get our formers to build some decent sensor coverage)

Anyone else thinking this way?

(ie - tell Morgan we're really disappointed, take everything off the table and let's for the time being just co-exist in an uneasy treaty - them whingeing about the ec's they're sending us and us about giving them the SCC Hunter ecploration data)

	28-10-2004 13:40									#246
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Yes, this looks like a good time to reconsider CDF's significance. They are trying to make us pay by the nose. We need to perhaps teach them a lesson - when we say we want to have a deal according to these parametres, you can't just go adding things all along and expect us to just accept.

	28-10-2004 23:36									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia ... They are trying to make us pay by the nose. We need to perhaps teach them a lesson - when we say we want to have a deal according to these parametres, you can't just go adding things all along and expect us to just accept.

Welcome to dealing with humans...

	30-10-2004 05:10									#248
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Maybe:

I see that when we are proposing a deal to you we should never open negotiations with what we believe is a fair offer, but rather double the asking price!!

That way, after all the beating down of our asking price and the addition of your escalators, we might actually have a deal that we can live with,

This is by way of saying that the proposed trade of Ethical Calculus and Gene Splicing for Industrial Economics and 120 energy credits has been withdrawn.

Methinks a frosty posture for a few turns is called for.

	30-10-2004 05:23									#249
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Yeah. Mead sent me a sort of plea, "the others are angry at me for not managing to make a deal for such a long time". This might allow us to push further so that Mead is desperate to get *any* deal possible done.

	30-10-2004 05:28									#250
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I'll just post your message verbatim, no point in spending any extra effort on these Morganite loons.

	30-10-2004 19:02									#251
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Mead replied this:

quote: We are disappointed with your withdrawl of your offer. We were strongly considering accepting it, but sought to explore whether there were other oppurtunties where we could better help each other meet our needs. Please note that the promise to not build the CDF, the best defensive SP available in this game (now that the CBA is gone) was a major concession on our part. Your possession of the CDF, and denial of it to all the other factions, would be a substantial benefit to you and loss to us. We remain willing and eager to work with you. If you want to put your offer back on the table, that is fine with us, if you also want to make another suggestion, we would be happy to hear it. Our offer remains open and on the table. If you feel your offer is fair and one you can live with then why remove it from the table? We felt that the no AV build clause was a fair exchange for you being allowed to profit on trading (Industrial Economics) while we could not profit off trading for 9 years off (Ethical Calculus). Is keeping your options open on building the AV that important to you? We thought it didn't matter all that much to you. We are eager to hear what you have to say. Mead CDO, Morgan Corp.

How about we also offer them a seperate no-embargo IndEcon<->Gene Splicing deal, and leave EthCalc for a seperate deal? And whoever accepts first, Morgan or Angel, we trade with?

	30-10-2004 22:42									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Yeah. Mead sent me a sort of plea, "the others are angry at me for not managing to make a deal for such a long time". This might allow us to push further so that Mead is desperate to get *any* deal possible done.

Are you serious?

Then send back a message telling them to be more realistic concerning the needs for both factions.

	31-10-2004 00:42									#253
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Our correspondance:

quote: Kass and Googlie I posted this in the embassy. Could you let me know what's happening. I'd really like to move the discussions along. I think my team is getting a little fed up with me for taking so long to reach a deal. * repeat of Mead's post in the embassy *

I replied:

quote: I'm sorry, some members of the Junta have had Real Life issues and we have trouble reaching a quorum. I have to get some consensus before I do decisions by myself alone.

Then I posted our withdrawal in the embassy.

Then he sent this:

quote: I replied to your earlier PM before I read your post in the embassy. I surprised, I thought we were making progess. I was not trying to insult you. I want to be fair and open to explore the best outcome for both of us. I was not saying if your that was your final offer then we were uninterested. I would appreciate working through this with you so we can move onto more valuable joint ventures with Sparta. If the offer you made is the best and final Spartan offer then place it back on the table in the embassy and we may have a deal. If you will not be placing it back on the table, then please let me know.

I think our little 'trick' may have worked, and we'll be able to work out the deal without the AV limitation. Again, this was not a matter of whether AV was of important to us, but more a matter of increasing terms being piled on what we've thought to be a good and finished deal.

I'm partial to putting the trade back on the table, or going with just GeneSplicing<->IndEcon if we want to.

	31-10-2004 00:46									#254
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Now I'm sending this:

quote: Kass I surprised, I thought we were making progess. I was not trying to insult you.

It hasn't been thought of such, not by a mile. It is just that we got tired of the Morganites adding on to the deal time after time. Clearly a difference in the way we approach negotiations, nothing more or else.

quote: I want to be fair and open to explore the best outcome for both of us.

Likewise.

quote: I was not saying if your that was your final offer then we were uninterested.

No you were not, but the Junta saw it fit to pull out from negotiations which weren't appearing to be going the way we wanted them to.

quote: I would appreciate working through this with you so we can move onto more valuable joint ventures with Sparta.

As do I, but I am restricted with what the others think of things. (In the Morgan/Gaian split I'm taking a strictly neutral stance, if only because of my position.)

quote: If the offer you made is the best and final Spartan offer then place it back on the table in the embassy and we may have a deal. If you will not be placing it back on the table, then please let me know.

[/quote]

I will tell the others this, and it's possible that we can reoffer the trade provided you'll agree to it. The Junta will be uncomfortable having to 'flipflop' like that and may need a little coaxing, perhaps an official request from you in the embassy to reinstate the trade and that you will accept it if we offer it? (I haven't checked the embassy yet so I don't know yet if there is such a proposal from you already.)

- Kass

	31-10-2004 04:37									#255
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Brilliant!

quote: Per our recent discussions I understand that is the best and final offer of the Junta. So we incorporate your terms removing the no trade clause on Industrial Economics: We Offer We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF. You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, and your commitment to never build the PEG. If you agree, please send both Techs to us preaccepted and post a response here confirming your acceptance. Mead CDO, Morgan Corp.

Accept it I guess?
Though why do they want us to send them the techs pre-accepted? Why can't they already offer IndEcon and 13c (5 from the commerce & 8 from the trade) on the table in their 2145 turn, and us then putting EthCalc & Gene Splicing on the table and accepting it. They'll still get their techs the same year, and they can't "pull a PEACE" on us.
We'd then get our 2145 share of the commerce in 2146, but that's only a minor issue I assume.

	31-10-2004 04:55									#256
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I say we accept. Mead is apparently keen to work with us and reinforcing his position (= our factions making progress) inside their team is also important for us.

I'm going to ask them on the importance of the preacceptation, if only to make them careful not to do anything dodgy (if they are planning to do something dodgy).

	31-10-2004 04:57									#257
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Kass can ask them to send it to us pre-accepted.

When they first proposed their version, the turn was in our hands, so us pre-accepting made sense. Now they'll have it before us, so it makes sense for them to put Ind Econ on pre-accept (at least) if not add the ec's to the Hunter rental. That makes a lot of sense, otherwise we both lose a year of usage

(Meanwhile, we take biogen from the Angels for Gene Splicing?)

	03-11-2004 04:54									#258
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Woops, just read this in the Morganite embassy:

quote: thereal_arginine: Would the Spartan Federation be willing to delay the delivery of "Gene Splicing" for a few turns?

Shall we say we have sadly already accepted their deal, and a replay is sadly not allowed? Accepting the Morganite request would mean we couldn't trade SocPsych with the UoP this year.
No doubt they ask so that they could research some b-line they're interested in. Any idea what it could be? AdapEcon or something else?

Shall we inform to what they are researching, and aks if they're interesting in some leapfrog? It's possible they're researching something we have, so it would be a waste not to cooperate.

Also if I'm mistaken our first five-year treaty ends this year. Shall we propose a new four-year treaty under the same terms, or negotiate new terms? (Four year would be so the treaty ends MY 2149, and we can then probe-attack & infiltrate Morgan without breaking any treaty or agreement.)

	03-11-2004 06:11									#259
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A couple of things - if we are going to redo the turn (I've got my laptop primed to do that) then we are invoking the parallel diplo rule, which means that everything else that I'd done up to the point of actually accepting the pact with Lal would have to stand, so that would mean that we'd already accepted the Morgan deal this turn.

Secondly, there's no penalties for infiltration - other than maybe killing a defender probe of theirs - if we found a base with no probe defense, then there'd be no repercussions.

As to leapfrogging, I'd be in favor of each of us laying our cards on the table as to what we're researching - as Maniac says, there's no point in duplicating research.

(And it's a valid point re the maps - Morgan is prolly as close to Zak on Chiron's "dark side" as we are in the sunlight, so it's only a matter of time before they infiltrate him. I should have thought of that in teh beginning.)

	03-11-2004 22:06									#260
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Midturn.sav posted in the turn thread.

I see that jtsisyoda responded in the embassy to arginine that he'd already acceptyed the deal, and I responded likewise that it's a done deal.

As to the other suggestions (treaty refreshment, etc), I didn't touch on them in my Embassy post - I'll leve that to internal discussion and then the Diplomats can respond

	04-11-2004 01:42									#261
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This posted in the Embassy (Voyages of the SCC Hunter)

Attachment: hunter-2145.jpg
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

	04-11-2004 02:02									#262
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In light of the recent trade we have and our seeming lack of plans to invade Morgan for the next turns, I think an extension is in order. But the length is what confounds me. Five years may be a bit too short, but if we go with ten they might get very suspicious. Fifteen? And we have to take in the pact consideration too, if we are to pact with them a permanent treaty would help negotiations a great deal, a show of trust.

	04-11-2004 04:54									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Also if I'm mistaken our first five-year treaty ends this year. Shall we propose a new four-year treaty under the same terms, or negotiate new terms? (Four year would be so the treaty ends MY 2149, and we can then probe-attack & infiltrate Morgan without breaking any treaty or agreement.)

No - the Treaty was effective 2142, so ends in the 2147 year (we have had only 3 payments under the profit sharing plan - 1 x 4 and 2 x 5 ec's)

see here for Mead's accounting

	08-11-2004 04:57									#264
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Got this PM from Arginine today:

quote: Received from Arginine of Morgan Industries Hmm, I should check my PMs more frequently. Fortunately, we have done the tech trade deal. I would like this bit to remain secret, but I'd like to buy some more techs on the open market. A highly desired tech soon would be worth a large payment. Don't expect to see any activity in this area in the near future.

To which I replied, trying to feed their paranoia:

quote: PM sent by Googlie to Arginine For enough ec's I'm sure anything can be arranged. Be aware, though, that the diplo lines are humming after your completion of the PTS. Everyone remember's Kody's brilliant play last game (where the Hive went on a binge of colonypod building - found a new base, size 3, quickly complete 2 colony pods that in turn found new size-3 bases) and can extrapolate Morgan having, say, 30 to 40 size 3 bases by 2160 or so. You don't need rec commons with the +1 talent that the HGP gives you and the -1 drone that the PTS gives you So the ganging up has begun. However, as much as it is in my power to do so, Sparta will remian as a neutral middleman for as long as possible. The Hive, too, is worrying us. Currently the good Chairman is producing no less than 15 impact-weaponed units, and is researching gatling weapons!! We need Silksteel Armour and Chaos weapons ASAP

I wonder if they're saving up to buy Ecol Eng from us?

	08-11-2004 18:45									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I wonder if they're saving up to buy Ecol Eng from us?

Why not ask them? And perhaps suggest some kind of leapfrog if possible.

	09-11-2004 09:48									#266
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Or how about a blockbuster deal with Morgan along a different research path than the Angels-Gaian proposal

The Googlie Manifesto - Clean Reactors and the Ascetic Virtues by 2160

Bio Engineering (clean reactors) needs Gene Splicing (which we have) and Neural Grafting, which in turn needs Industrial Automation (we both have that) and Secrets (which we have)

So ... if we can get Morgan to research - and pass on to us - Neural Grafting and BioEngineering, we'll need to give them Secrets and GS, and prolly something else too - I imagine that'd need to be Ecol Eng.

Planetary Economics (the Ascetic Virtues) needs Adaptive Economics (my guess is that Morgan is currently researching this) and Intellectual Integrity (which I propose we shift to in 2148)

So a deal might look like:

Sparta gives Morgan:

• Secrets of the Human Brain
  
• Gene Splicing
  
• Ecological Engineering
  
• Intellectual Integrity, when researched

	09-11-2004 10:19									#267
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(I sent a feeler out to Arginine along these lines to see if there's any merit in pursuing it. If that's not what they're researching, then we're wasting our time

quote: text of PM from Googlie to Argenine Re: ACDG-3 Possible Morgan-Sparta blockbuster deal Man, it's hard getting the Junta to think of dealing with Morgan - you guys are really tight lipped about what techs we have that you may be interested in. Here's something I put before the Junta today for their consideration (I call it The Googlie Manifesto) ************************************************* The Googlie Manifesto Clean Reactors and the Ascetic Virtues by 2160 Bio Engineering (clean reactors) needs Gene Splicing (which we have) and Neural Grafting, which in turn needs Industrial Automation (we both have that) and Secrets (which we have) So ... if Morgan Industries agrees to research - and pass on to us - Neural Grafting and BioEngineering, we'll give Morgan Industries Secrets and GS, (and prolly something else too - I imagine Ecological Engineering would be of most interest.) Planetary Economics (the Ascetic Virtues) needs Adaptive Economics (which Morgan Industries should research - for the PEG if for nothing else) and Intellectual Integrity (which Sparta will shift to imminently) So a deal might look like: Sparta gives Morgan: Secrets of the Human Brain Gene Splicing Ecological Engineering Intellectual Integrity, when researched Morgan gives Sparta: Neural Grafting Bio Engineering Adaptive Economics Planetary Economics We'll undertake not to build the Planetary Energy Grid nor the Ascetic Virtues provided Morgan Industries undertakes not to build the Neural Amplifier and permits us to trade or sell those techs (after any associated SP's have been completed) but only to the AI ************************************************* This is exploratory - and unlike my previous attempt this time it has the support of the Junta (along the lines of "see what they might be interested in doing - what lines are they currently researching, what do we have that may interest them") I'm coming to you rather than just posting it to the Embassy as I feel that you'll be able to tell me right off the bat if I'm wasting my time trying to be a Morgan advocate within the Junta and engineer some deals that will benefit both our factions, or if I should just bow to the pressure that's building to join the ABM axis (anyone but Morgan) Cheers Googlie

Let's see what that dredges up

	09-11-2004 14:37									#268
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Oh, awesome. It'd be great if we could leapfrog with the entire rest of the Planet for the next decade or so.

	09-11-2004 18:56									#269
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I like this.

But can this be done?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Sparta gives Morgan: Intellectual Integrity, when researched

If the simulator is any indication, our tech costs will rise to more than 600 labs after we've researched DocIni. So even if we didn't switch to Fundy and kept labs spending on 60% (and thus had ~20 labs/year), it would still take 30 years to research IntInt.

	09-11-2004 19:07									#270
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Well, but does it? Remember that everyone else, too, will be getting more techs so our relative ratio isn't increasing. It's pretty moot now anyway, as we won't have Doc Loyalty in 2147