24-10-2004 11:16									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I have it on my DVR and just finished watching it, if someone wants to explain how to get it onto my computer, i'd be more than happy to do so....... That other guy's hair was horrible.... ACK!

His hair was soo awful. Ozzy looked sharp, though.

	24-10-2004 11:29									#92
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Actually, the biggest changes wouldn't be the national level, but local elections. Education would get a huge boost.

I also would not worry about double votes, while there are sheep, there are also rebels.

	24-10-2004 18:24									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Ozzy I think you make good points, but there are still more concerns - the foremost being that kids just don't deal with the same issues. Most don't pay taxes, hold or want competitive jobs, try to pay off a mortgage, marry members of the same sex, etc. About the only relevant issue among the millions and millions of new eligible voters that you want would be the potential draft in Iraq or elsewhere.

Exactly!

For one, isn't that enough?

For another, teens have to take a much longer view on issues - SS, Medicare, etc., because what they do now could have far-reaching implications.

Finally, on those other things, teens will be pretty free of interests in those areas, so they can vote based on what they think will be best for America, not best for themselves.

	24-10-2004 18:26									#94
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I heard some wacko on Fox News on Saturday saying 16 years old should vote. Was that you?

I strongly oppose 16 years old voting!

	24-10-2004 18:36									#96
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16 years don't deal with any real issues like jobs, paying bills, raising families etc... The biggest issues 16 years old face are zits and kissing a girl or boy for the first time. Some teen whose biggest problem is zits is going to decide the leader of the free world? That's insane. They vote for president based on which candidates like their favorite rock band! It's absurd!

	24-10-2004 18:37									#97
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Riiight...

	24-10-2004 19:00									#98
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 16 years don't deal with any real issues like jobs, paying bills, raising families etc... The biggest issues 16 years old face are zits and kissing a girl or boy for the first time. Some teen whose biggest problem is zits is going to decide the leader of the free world? That's insane. They vote for president based on which candidates like their favorite rock band! It's absurd!

Hardly. You ever sit down and talk with a great uncle or grandparent? I swear all they fricken talk about is bowel movements and their bad joints. Oh, and Wheel of Fortune.

Maximum voting age now

	24-10-2004 19:05									#99
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YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY PRURIENT AND EXPEDIENT QUESTION, GOOD SIR

	24-10-2004 19:19									#100
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Hardly. You ever sit down and talk with a great uncle or grandparent? I swear all they fricken talk about is bowel movements and their bad joints. Oh, and Wheel of Fortune. Maximum voting age now

That example does not apply. An old person has the experience of age to help them judge which candidate has the best policies. They lived through several administrations, experienced economic recessions and wars. When you've fought in WW2, like my grandfather did and lived through important events like the Cuban missile crisis, assassination of JFK, Watergate, Vietnam, Persian Gulf War, I think you have a real good perspective on things. So, they are capable of judging which candidate has the best ideas. 16 years old have absolutely no perspective with which to judge the best president.

I challenge all of you who believe we should lower the voting age to 16: give me one real good reason why it is a good idea. All I've heard is that 16 years should have a say in presidential elections because their lives are affected by who is president. Well, that applies to everybody. Should 12 years old vote?

	24-10-2004 19:19									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Incidentally, OzzyKP, how many contributions to your admirable group come from sweating 40-year-old men who believe your organization has something to do with getting rid of age-of-consent laws?

None, you wa.nker.

We don't deal with the age of consent, and any one of those scary NAMBLA types come near we throw rocks at him.

	24-10-2004 19:26									#102
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Old people are also terribly set in their ways. They don't have a fresh mind and perspective to judge things impartially. They vote based on prejudices and preconseptions that go back decades. How many adults (of all ages) are pretty much straight party voters and have been for years? These people don't think, they just vote R or D cause thats what they've always done.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I challenge all of you who believe we should lower the voting age to 16: give me one real good reason why it is a good idea. All I've heard is that 16 years should have a say in presidential elections because their lives are affected by who is president. Well, that applies to everybody. Should 12 years old vote?

I'll give you 10.
1. Youth suffer under double standards of adult responsibility like being charged as adults for crimes.
2. Youth pay taxes, and follow our laws like everyone else.
3. Youth have no political representation without the vote.
4. Youth have a unique perspective, they'll never have those experiences again
5. 16 is a better age to introduce voting than 18; 16 year olds are stationary and thus more likely to vote
6. Lowering the Voting Age will increase voter turnout
7. If we let stupid adults vote, why not let smart youth vote?
8. Youth will vote well
9. There are no wrong votes
10. Lowering the voting age will provide an intrinsic benefit to the lives of youth

For more in depth, check out: http://www.youthrights.org/vote10.shtml

	24-10-2004 19:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar His hair was soo awful. Ozzy looked sharp, though.

Also, he never looked at the camera.

	24-10-2004 19:31									#104
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I'll give you one reason:

Who cares what a 16 year old thinks!!!!

	24-10-2004 20:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat That example does not apply. An old person has the experience of age to help them judge which candidate has the best policies.

quote: They lived through several administrations, experienced economic recessions and wars.

You don't need to have lived through a time to understand it. And helf of them are senile, and the other half don't give a crap what happens to the US after their dead - they might as well get the most out of it while they're alive.

	24-10-2004 21:10									#106
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 16 years don't deal with any real issues like jobs, paying bills, raising families etc... The biggest issues 16 years old face are zits and kissing a girl or boy for the first time. Some teen whose biggest problem is zits is going to decide the leader of the free world? That's insane. They vote for president based on which candidates like their favorite rock band! It's absurd!

That's so 1950... 16-years old now wonder whether or not they should go to that bisexual bring-your-own-crack orgy...

	24-10-2004 22:48									#107
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So with those arguments, what difference does 2 years REALLY make? I mean, 18 years or 16 years.. if 16 years is zit faced crack orgy person, then what is 18 year old then?

And 90% of 'grandma' votes goes to 'who was that nice young man.. he reminded me of.... I'll vote him'.

I'd like to challenge few issues:

"16 years don't deal with any real issues like jobs, paying bills, raising families etc... The biggest issues 16 years old face are zits and kissing a girl or boy for the first time. Some teen whose biggest problem is zits is going to decide the leader of the free world? That's insane. They vote for president based on which candidates like their favorite rock band! It's absurd!"

raising families is a political issue? What issue is paying bills? If you mean economy, isn't it pretty messed up already, plus I argue that most of us don't know about it either, we just think we know. If we knew about economy, we'd have a pretty amazing economy. But we don't. Some believe Kerry takes up the economy, some believe Bush will get that job done, and we have arguments as to why MY candidate will do it, yet there is no fact based answer to that, and MOST people at the end thinks 'how will this affect ME'. Raising taxes is unpopular decision, even if it makes sense to the economy as a whole, no one wants that. Or then again others think it will save us all, so giving tax breaks to rich isn't the answer. At the end, they just think how it will affect themselves directly. 16 year old can do that. There are no hard solid facts in economy. There are guidelines, there are suggestions, there are goals. No one has control over the economy as a whole, it has too many factors in it. Of course you can totally mess it up too, and people would know that won't work, but there are countless other ways too and we just claim we know it. If that is so, then why aren't we all millionaires?

Voting for someone with favourite rock band is that much worse than giving your vote to someone because he is affiliated with certain religion because.. ??

	24-10-2004 23:06									#108
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I think you are all raising good points as to who should NOT have the vote, but not why kids should. It does you no good to say "The system is broke, let's make it more broke."

	24-10-2004 23:06									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That's so 1950... 16-years old now wonder whether or not they should go to that bisexual bring-your-own-crack orgy...

Can I still attend this event if I'm 21?

	24-10-2004 23:10									#110
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Why should they? Because they are people.

	24-10-2004 23:12									#111
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quote: As for issues that concern them, there is a lot. First and foremost, education. It affects them more than anyone. Also, every policy that gets passed has more effect on youth because they have to put up with it longer.

This is true but I don't think youth really realize this. I have yet to hear anyone below the age of 18 talk about social security, tax breaks, etc. And only a minority of 16 year olds, I bet, maybe 10% of millions of new potential voters, even take the civics classes you mentioned in the interview.

It's a great cause but I think education is priority one before you allow them all to vote.

	24-10-2004 23:15									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf I have yet to hear anyone below the age of 18 talk about social security, tax breaks, etc.

You obviously don't spend enough time on this board.

	24-10-2004 23:15									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That's so 1950... 16-years old now wonder whether or not they should go to that bisexual bring-your-own-crack orgy...

Hey! We don't bring crack to our orgies!

	24-10-2004 23:17									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf This is true but I don't think youth really realize this. I have yet to hear anyone below the age of 18 talk about social security, tax breaks, etc. And only a minority of 16 year olds, I bet, maybe 10% of millions of new potential voters, even take the civics classes you mentioned in the interview. It's a great cause but I think education is priority one before you allow them all to vote.

* Kuciwalker is 16

	24-10-2004 23:41									#115
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There's no reason to expect any demographic to be concerned about every single issue facing the country.

	24-10-2004 23:41									#116
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Old people are also terribly set in their ways. They don't have a fresh mind and perspective to judge things impartially. They vote based on prejudices and preconseptions that go back decades. How many adults (of all ages) are pretty much straight party voters and have been for years? These people don't think, they just vote R or D cause thats what they've always done.

So it is just to get more democrat votes. You figure 16 year old will probably support gay marriage and abortion and the likes, since they have a "fresh mind".

quote: I'll give you 10. 1. Youth suffer under double standards of adult responsibility like being charged as adults for crimes.

This is more a problem with our judicial system than a problem of not voting.

quote: 2. Youth pay taxes, and follow our laws like everyone else.

Most youth don't pay taxes or not any significant amount of taxes. All citizens have to obey our laws. Again, an 11 year has to obey our laws too. That is not a reason to have a vote.

quote: 3. Youth have no political representation without the vote.

That's not entirely true. Politicians still pay attention to youth issues because they know the youth care about these issues and will vote on them when they reach 18.

Besides, if you give 16 years the right to vote, politicians will pander to get those votes. You'll weaken important issues like national security because politicians will have to pay more attention to silly youth issues.

quote: 4. Youth have a unique perspective, they'll never have those experiences again

What experiences are that? Having sex for the first time? How are those issues relevant to voting?

quote: 5. 16 is a better age to introduce voting than 18; 16 year olds are stationary and thus more likely to vote

A lot of 18 years and adults don't vote. What makes you think 16 years old will vote?

quote: 6. Lowering the Voting Age will increase voter turnout

Voter turnout would not be a problem if more adults who already have the right to vote, did vote.

quote: 7. If we let stupid adults vote, why not let smart youth vote?

How do you know youth wil vote smart? Some will, some won't. You'll still have a lot of smart voters and a lot of dumb voters.

quote: 8. Youth will vote well

How do you know that?

quote: 9. There are no wrong votes

except votes for Kerry.

quote: 10. Lowering the voting age will provide an intrinsic benefit to the lives of youth

Voting does not improve your life unless you depend on government to improve your life for you. Why give politicians a reason to create more government programs to pander to the youth vote?

	24-10-2004 23:45									#117
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quote: 16 years don't deal with any real issues like jobs, paying bills, raising families etc... The biggest issues 16 years old face are zits and kissing a girl or boy for the first time.

I'm 17 and I still haven't faced that issue.

	24-10-2004 23:48									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf I think you are all raising good points as to who should NOT have the vote, but not why kids should. It does you no good to say "The system is broke, let's make it more broke."

Well if you want to disenfranchise all those people we've pointed out, then fine go ahead. In that case we aren't talking about a voting age, but something else entirely.

I'm talking about hypocrisy and justice. To punish a group of people for commiting a sin that earns a seperate group a reward when committed is unjust discrimination no matter how you slice it. If you want to start banning all 'incompetent' people from voting, and permitt all competent people to vote regardless of age then start some kind of test and be done with it. I won't stand in your way.

Age is in this case, and always, a secondary stand in for other, primary qualities. If age could ever be proven to be an always and accurate indicator of those other qualities then it would be justified. But in so far as age has become a primary qualifer completely divorced from reality and from legitimate standards such as intelligence, maturity, competence, etc, it is and will always be discrimination.

In the twisted world we live in, being a metally retarded adult with an IQ of 12 and an age of 40 has a right to vote whereas a Harvard graduate and genious at age of 16 doesn't. This is unjust discrimination, entirely divorced from all meaning and reasonableness.

	24-10-2004 23:49									#119
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What exactly is a "silly youth issue"? Will giving 16 year olds the vote suddenly start politicians arguing for the "Make Sally Thompson Stop being Such a ***** Act" or do things like properly funded youth centres and education count as silly youth issues?

	24-10-2004 23:50									#120
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diplomat, how about you follow that link I posted. You asked for reasons, I gave you reasons. If you want more in depth explinations, follow that link.