03-11-2004 23:45									#151
	Suffering from ads?

quote: The whites in the South are not, AFAIK in favour of secession

A random unscientific sampling of bumper stickers disagrees with you

quote: The blacks in the South were historically the victims of oppression

If the Anglos are forced to leave Canada too, especially if French becomes the official language, they'd be somewhat oppressed

	03-11-2004 23:47									#152
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If the Anglos are forced to leave Canada too, especially if French becomes the official language, they'd be somewhat oppressed

French is already the official language in Quebec.

	03-11-2004 23:56									#153
	Support Apolyton

Ah, well, see? They already are

(I thought English was also an official language?)

	04-11-2004 00:03									#154
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker If the Anglos are forced to leave Canada too, especially if French becomes the official language, they'd be somewhat oppressed

The Anglos in Quebec are already the victims of certain forms of government sponsored discrimination.

a) This still doesn't begin to compare with what the blacks in the South endured

b) historically it's been the other way around

I don't agree with Oncle Boris' analysis of the will of a people being frustrated by a ruling minority. In fact, I think that this is patently false. However, your analogy is ridiculous.

The day they start enslaving the anglophones in Quebec I'll agree with you. Until then, stop being silly.

If you want to discuss Quebec politics you should at least understand the background

Plains of Abraham
Quebec Act
BNA act
Maurice Duplessis
Silent Revolution
Pierre Elliott Trudeau
René Levesque
October Crisis
1976
Bill 101, 22, 176 etc
1980
1982
1995

Until you're capable of explaining what each of these mean your analyses are just plain silly. It's like me talking to you about american politics without having read the Constitution or having heard of the Civil War.

	04-11-2004 00:04									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ah, well, see? They already are (I thought English was also an official language?)

Of Canada. Not of Quebec.

	04-11-2004 00:05									#156
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Anglos in Quebec are already the victims of certain forms of government sponsored discrimination. a) This still doesn't begin to compare with what the blacks in the South endured b) historically it's been the other way around I don't agree with Oncle Boris' analysis of the will of a people being frustrated by a ruling minority. In fact, I think that this is patently false. However, your analogy is ridiculous.

I wasn't seriously insisting that there was major, institutionalized discrimination, but pointing out that the logic used was the same. It's those darn [insert minority here] holding us pure people back."

	04-11-2004 00:05									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

See what I mean?

That's bill 22

	04-11-2004 00:05									#158
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Of Canada. Not of Quebec.

Yes, but I thought (previously) that Quebec had dual official languages.

	04-11-2004 00:06									#159
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Anglos in Quebec are already the victims of certain forms of government sponsored discrimination. a) This still doesn't begin to compare with what the blacks in the South endured b) historically it's been the other way around I don't agree with Oncle Boris' analysis of the will of a people being frustrated by a ruling minority. In fact, I think that this is patently false. However, your analogy is ridiculous. I wasn't seriously insisting that there was major, institutionalized discrimination, but pointing out that the logic used was the same. It's those darn [insert minority here] holding us pure people back."

And if the minority has, until very recently, been in a position to politically oppress the majority then this argument becomes valid.

	04-11-2004 00:11									#160
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bill 22

http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebec...gs/langlaws.htm

	04-11-2004 00:32									#161
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

KH, I knew it was impossible to say what I said without being somehow misunderstood.

The sentence "French Canadians are being deprived independance because of the minorities" is true. In '95, the number of them who voted yes was more than 60%, and it still is at least 55%.

I'm not saying anything beyond that, and certainly not that immigrants and Anglos shouldn't have their say in a referendum.

	04-11-2004 00:38									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: In '95, the number of them who voted yes was more than 60%

Just under 60%

quote: and it still is at least 55%

Not even close. Overall support for sovereignty is in the doldrums in the mid to high 30s and has been for more than 5 years.

This puts (if we assume that no non-francophones are sovereigntist) the francophone vote for sovereignty in the mid to high 40s

the 1995 referendum was as close to your description as its ever gotten. Since then the sovereigntists have lost ground. Good lucky to them when they try next time. They'll get slaughtered. Unlike 1995 the country isn' in the midst of a major depression, the national debt isn't out of control and we haven't just witnessed the failure of two rounds of constitutional talks.

Nobody cares any more.

	04-11-2004 00:42									#163
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Wezil What you often see Spencer is what we call 'opting out' of federal programs. What this means is that when the federal government sends a new program down the pipe Quebec will take the cash allocated for the program in that province and administer the program itself w/o federal involvement. Their argument being the cash was theirs anyway (paid in taxes) and the feds should not dictate how it is spent. While this sometimes results in a disconnect between a program offered in Quebec and the similar program elsewhere in the country, for the most part Canadians outside Quebec don't really care. Oddly enough I have some sympathy for Quebec's insistance on running its own affairs. The historical record in this country is one of the federal government intruding all over provincial rights whenever it suits them. Sadly, the provinces frequently (almost always) step aside and let the feds assume the jurisdiction. Quebec in this respect has balls and usually says no. Just send the cheque. Was this what you were referring to Spencer?

An interesting post since I havent lived in Canada for nearly 20 years (and so have lost touch) but it doesnt really get to what Oncle Boris was refering to. I take from your comments that the problem is one of the quebecois opinion that Quebec is a 'state' a la USA rather than a province. OB seemed to be suggesting something more cultural than governmental.

In any case, the questions posed by Kuciwalker kinda exemplify the problem; Canada has two official languages except in Quebec. Quebecois see this an extention of culture (and states rights) , the federal govt sees it as illegal but cant do anything about it, and the guy in Vancouver see's it as evidence that the francophones get special treatment.

	04-11-2004 10:06									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH An interesting post since I havent lived in Canada for nearly 20 years (and so have lost touch) but it doesnt really get to what Oncle Boris was refering to. I take from your comments that the problem is one of the quebecois opinion that Quebec is a 'state' a la USA rather than a province. OB seemed to be suggesting something more cultural than governmental. In any case, the questions posed by Kuciwalker kinda exemplify the problem; Canada has two official languages except in Quebec. Quebecois see this an extention of culture (and states rights) , the federal govt sees it as illegal but cant do anything about it, and the guy in Vancouver see's it as evidence that the francophones get special treatment.

No, you are misleaded. French and English are official languages at the federal level, while provinces are free to set their own. Quebec is officially French, New Brunswick is officially bilingual while all other provinces are officially English.

	04-11-2004 10:11									#165
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

KH, a poll conducted in January 2004, before "ze Scandal" shows support for independance at 47%, and 53% amongst francophones.

http://www.ledevoir.com/2004/01/23/45610.html

	04-11-2004 10:13									#166
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Does it make sense to have English and French labels on Coca-Cola in Alberta?

	04-11-2004 10:15									#167
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Asher Does it make sense to have English and French labels on Coca-Cola in Alberta?

It's not a requirement, they do that to save on packaging.

	04-11-2004 10:18									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It's not a requirement, they do that to save on packaging.

Aren't import laws and such Federal?

	04-11-2004 10:20									#169
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Aren't import laws and such Federal?

I've seen products labeled in French only, and others labeled in English only.

I don't exactly know really, but from experience I assume that a) you can label any way you want 2) maybe you can't but then it's not strictly enforced.

	04-11-2004 13:15									#170
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Of course. I hope you and Wezil understand though that the mere use of the word "pure laine" is considered racist by some mediatic establishment. Personally, I think we should all be careful about this, because ethnioc distinctions are a tricky affair, but OTOH I don't see what's wrong with saying that someone who doesn't even consider himself a Quebecer is not a true one, as long it doesn't translate into some sort of assumption about who should or shouldn't vote.

I did not know that about the term. Thanks. Actually, I'm not entirely clear what it means, but I understand the jist of it.

As for the second part, it sounds like you are on the road to making judgements about who is a legitimate resident of your province. Quebecois and Qubecer are two different things, no?

	04-11-2004 13:22									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As for the second part, it sounds like you are on the road to making judgements about who is a legitimate resident of your province. Quebecois and Qubecer are two different things, no?

Not at all, and the use of both "Quebecois" and "Quebecer" was not done on purpose.

	04-11-2004 15:34									#172
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher Does it make sense to have English and French labels on Coca-Cola in Alberta?

We have French and Dutch labels on pretty much every import product. This way, the companies can target the French, Belgian and Dutch market in one shot. This has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

	04-11-2004 15:53									#173
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some companies plaster every language they can on their products in Europe. Easier that way than making 16+ different packages for each country.

	04-11-2004 22:19									#174
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Spencer - Boris explained the language situation quite well. It is a reality that most Canadians do not realise either (only 1 bilingual province - NB).

Btw, the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act (federal) mandates the language requirements for products manufactured or imported to Canada. In a nutshell - all required info (name of product, quantity of product, manufacturer/importer) must be English AND French. Of course with all laws there are exceptions subject to the regulations. If anyone wants I will find them a link......

	04-11-2004 22:30									#175
	Got spare money?

I guess we won't be touchy to the point of looking at the law. Personally, I don't mind bilingual labels in Quebec, and I don't understand why Asher would make such a big deal of them being in Alberta.

	04-11-2004 22:31									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

NYE -

pure laine = pure wool, so you get the connotations there.

	04-11-2004 22:36									#177
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Wezil Spencer - Boris explained the language situation quite well. It is a reality that most Canadians do not realise either (only 1 bilingual province - NB).

When did that change, or was it always that way and we were just ignorant of the fact. I recall that the requirement for french language CBC station caused a huge stink. Hmmm, I guess thats seen as federal.

OB hasnt got back to my previous question about whether his concerns are cultural rather than governmental.

	04-11-2004 22:39									#178
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I guess we won't be touchy to the point of looking at the law. Personally, I don't mind bilingual labels in Quebec, and I don't understand why Asher would make such a big deal of them being in Alberta.

I wasn't trying to be antogonistic in any way Boris. Just inserting a rare verifiable fact into the discussion. You are right btw, I too see products that don't comply. It comes down to a case of complaint driven enforcement.


From a site offering an interpretation of the law...

The CPLA requires certain information to appear on the product label, namely:

(1) the common or generic name of the product;

(2) a declaration of net quantity, generally in numerical count or metric units of measurement (although supplementary non-metric measurements may also be used); and

(3) the identity and address of the person by or for whom the product was manufactured, sold or imported (i.e. the dealer identification).

In regard to the dealer identification requirement, if the product is imported, then one of three particular formats must be used:

(i) the name and address of the Canadian dealer, preceded by the words “imported by” or “imported for”; or

(ii) the country of origin adjacent to the name and address of the Canadian dealer; or

(iii) the name and address of the dealer located outside of Canada.

The Regulations also dictate the placement of labels. Generally, the label must be applied to the principal display panel of the product. What constitutes the “principal display panel” differs depending on the type of packaging, but typically will refer to the prominent surface of the product.

The Regulations to the CPLA require all mandatory information, other than the dealer identification, to appear in both English and French. Therefore, the name of the product, net quantity, and, if applicable, the words “imported by/for” must be in bilingual format. The dealer identification may appear in English or French.

Certain prepackaged products are exempted from all provisions of the CPLA, or from one or more of the individual requirements. Also, the Regulations contain stipulations regarding size and type style of lettering and numbering. Accordingly, the Regulations should be carefully reviewed both to determine whether any of the exemptions apply and to ensure that format requirements have been met.

	04-11-2004 22:43									#179
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH An interesting post since I havent lived in Canada for nearly 20 years (and so have lost touch) but it doesnt really get to what Oncle Boris was refering to. I take from your comments that the problem is one of the quebecois opinion that Quebec is a 'state' a la USA rather than a province. OB seemed to be suggesting something more cultural than governmental.

Let's reassess: Quebec is a nation, but it's unclear how it would truly benefit from having its own state.

Politically, there are good reasons IMO on both sides; for me, it would all trace back to a very personal choice, because I would feel something is somehow wrong if I voted against independance just because I thought that we couldn't tackle the challenge of having a state that serves us better.

	04-11-2004 22:55									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I guess we won't be touchy to the point of looking at the law. Personally, I don't mind bilingual labels in Quebec, and I don't understand why Asher would make such a big deal of them being in Alberta.

I would prefer nutritional and dietary information be posted instead of French.

It makes sense in Quebec, it has a large English and French population. It does not make sense in Alberta, which has a pathetically small French population.