04-11-2004 23:33									#181
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Yeah, and you expect companies to make separate packagings for each province?

	04-11-2004 23:38									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Let's reassess: Quebec is a nation, but it's unclear how it would truly benefit from having its own state. Politically, there are good reasons IMO on both sides; for me, it would all trace back to a very personal choice, because I would feel something is somehow wrong if I voted against independance just because I thought that we couldn't tackle the challenge of having a state that serves us better.

Ah, so you regard Quebec as a conquered nation under the hegemony of Canada rather than state in the american sense. So what is it about Quebec that doesnt allow its integration with 'greater Canada' after so long a time? Old european grudges perhaps?

	04-11-2004 23:42									#183
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Ah, so you regard Quebec as a conquered nation under the hegemony of Canada rather than state in the american sense. So what is it about Quebec that doesnt allow its integration with 'greater Canada' after so long a time? Old european grudges perhaps?

Would you like Alabama to be the only English-speaking part of Greater France?

	04-11-2004 23:45									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Yeah, and you expect companies to make separate packagings for each province?

You expect companies to make separate packagings for each country?

Quebec is the only exception. If that poses a problem with Quebec, so be it. It's not my concern.

It should not be a federal law, since most provinces do not have any considerable French-speaking population. It should be up to the company...

	04-11-2004 23:46									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Would you like Alabama to be the only English-speaking part of Greater France?

Obviously, it would make more sense for Alabama to finally leave, rather than push their incestuous practices on the homosexual French nation.

	04-11-2004 23:50									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You expect companies to make separate packagings for each country?

If the market is large enough, yes. If the market isn't large enough (like cookies in Europe), the packaging will be international.[/QUOTE]

	05-11-2004 00:01									#187
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Ah, so you regard Quebec as a conquered nation under the hegemony of Canada rather than state in the american sense. So what is it about Quebec that doesnt allow its integration with 'greater Canada' after so long a time? Old european grudges perhaps?

No! It is exactly because respectful integration with Canada seems possible that I don't see independance as an absolute requirement!

	05-11-2004 00:04									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You expect companies to make separate packagings for each country?

As Spiffor said it is common in Europe to see products with packaging in 5+ languages.

That federal law is the least of my concerns. Only the most seasoned whiners would have something against it.

	05-11-2004 00:12									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris As Spiffor said it is common in Europe to see products with packaging in 5+ languages.

IIRC, Canada is not Europe.

Ideally, what would happen is Quebec leaves, or accepts English.

There's no room for an ancient dialect on my products.

	05-11-2004 00:37									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Let's reassess: Quebec is a nation, but it's unclear how it would truly benefit from having its own state. Politically, there are good reasons IMO on both sides; for me, it would all trace back to a very personal choice, because I would feel something is somehow wrong if I voted against independance just because I thought that we couldn't tackle the challenge of having a state that serves us better.

The same dilemma appears when a well paid manager is contemplating to become the owner of a smaller business. All difficulties and worries and risks of being alone on one hand, and the enebriating feeling of independance on the other. In other words, is it better to be the second in Rome or the first in one s village?

	05-11-2004 00:50									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris No! It is exactly because respectful integration with Canada seems possible that I don't see independance as an absolute requirement!

I guess its an language/interpretation thing then.

When you, as a quebecois, say "Quebec is a nation". It suggests to me that you dont want to be part of Canada.
While "but it's unclear how it would truly benefit from having its own state." suggests that you merely accept being a part of Canada since you dont perceive an alternative.

So again, given that you even consider independence an option, I wonder what you perceive the problems to be that cause you to consider that option.

Remember, I havent lived in Canada for nearly 20 years so I expect things have changed a bit.

	05-11-2004 00:53									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Obviously, it would make more sense for Alabama to finally leave, rather than push their incestuous practices on the homosexual French nation.

Feeling 'on top of the world today' are we? Hmmm!

	05-11-2004 01:00									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Would you like Alabama to be the only English-speaking part of Greater France?

Well obviously I wouldnt want to have anything to do with you frog-eaters

I think this is an interesting discussion. I've always appreciated the fact that Canada will never be a part of America so long as it has the french culture so I dont understand why independence is such an issue for a varying number of quebecois. Just what is the problem? Maybe after not living there for so long I can understand it now.

	05-11-2004 01:03									#194
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You're doing a great job, Oncle Boris!

	05-11-2004 02:38									#195
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I guess its an language/interpretation thing then. When you, as a quebecois, say "Quebec is a nation". It suggests to me that you dont want to be part of Canada. While "but it's unclear how it would truly benefit from having its own state." suggests that you merely accept being a part of Canada since you dont perceive an alternative.

Not necessarily. There are examples of federal, multi-national states like Belgium, and they can work. (BTW, though, I'd prefer that the relationship between the French and English in Canada is better than between the Wallons and the Flemish).

Something interesting arising from your point though, is the situation around geopolitical factors: normally, independance means more sovereignty, but in this particular case it could mean less.

In another context, I could be a fierce backer of independance, while in the current one I realize that a weaker Canada and a weaker Quebec means we'll both have our hands tied in the back when facing America, hence some of my reserves about independance.

quote: So again, given that you even consider independence an option, I wonder what you perceive the problems to be that cause you to consider that option. Remember, I havent lived in Canada for nearly 20 years so I expect things have changed a bit.

That Ottawa impedes on provincial powers, mainly, in a way that some fundamental aspirations of our nation may never be listened to by something seen as a "foreign" government.

	05-11-2004 03:13									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You expect companies to make separate packagings for each country? Quebec is the only exception. If that poses a problem with Quebec, so be it. It's not my concern. It should not be a federal law, since most provinces do not have any considerable French-speaking population. It should be up to the company...

Not true. There are areas of Northern Alberta where French is a first language for a sizable portion of the population. There is a sizable (and thriving) Franco community in Edmonton.

I would imagine most of the West would be the same (French communities sprinkled in amongst the Anglos and others). That would be because the French were among the first people out here, and many more French people came West later on when large scale settlement was being encouraged by the Federal Government and the rail roads.

	05-11-2004 03:16									#197
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Edmonton and Northern Alberta don't count, they're worthless tundra. It figures the French would be there, if anywhere.

How big is the Edmonton franco community?

Better still, how many of the French in Alberta can't read English?

	05-11-2004 03:19									#198
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How many English can't look past the French labels?

	05-11-2004 03:20									#199
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How many English can't look past the French labels?

And see dietary and nutrition information?

I'd reckon 100%.

	05-11-2004 03:22									#200
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quote: Not true. There are areas of Northern Alberta where French is a first language for a sizable portion of the population. There is a sizable (and thriving) Franco community in Edmonton.

Grande Prairie included. Huge Catholic church out that way. Where are you going to get these Catholics, other than from French families?

	05-11-2004 03:25									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How big is the Edmonton franco community?

I'm guessing, but I'd say upwards of 50,000.

St Albert is part of the metro area. It was a largely French settlement to the NW of Fort Edmonton. A lot more French settled from there towards the North and West. Even today, visit St Paul and you will hear heavy French accents among many people born and raised in Alberta.

	05-11-2004 03:29									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And see dietary and nutrition information? I'd reckon 100%.

Why do you think you would get more dietary information if French were not required?

Packaging will be done according to what the company thinks will market its product effectively, while obeying laws.

We have the dietary information we do because of Federal regulations (largely).

The answer for you would appear to be better Federal laws regarding more dietary information, non?

	05-11-2004 03:57									#203
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why do you think you would get more dietary information if French were not required? Packaging will be done according to what the company thinks will market its product effectively, while obeying laws. We have the dietary information we do because of Federal regulations (largely). The answer for you would appear to be better Federal laws regarding more dietary information, non?

Exactly. But Asher is long to understand.

	05-11-2004 06:45									#204
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why do you think you would get more dietary information if French were not required? Packaging will be done according to what the company thinks will market its product effectively, while obeying laws. We have the dietary information we do because of Federal regulations (largely). The answer for you would appear to be better Federal laws regarding more dietary information, non?

Your wish is my command.....

Such legislation already exists in the Food and Drugs Act (again federal). Ingredient and dietary lists are already mandated although debate exists over what should and shouldn't be listed. The regulations in this area are currently under review.

Btw, when considering francophone populations outside Quebec one must not forget northern ontario where there is a very sizable french speaking population. Northern Ontario often feels alienated in the Ontario parliament b/c of their small number of mpp's (little influence) and radically different realities than southern Ontario, both geography and culture (read - Toronto).

Asher - I understand your point. My 'hometown' had german as its second most spoken language (french was actually well down the list). Regardless, this is not a problem for Cdn manufacturers so much as it for those south of the border.

A larger issue in the area of product labeling in my mind are the growing number of products available on Cdn shelves in NEITHER english nor french.

DAVOUT - Who said they were only second in Rome? You make a debatable assumption there.

	05-11-2004 06:50									#205
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why do you think you would get more dietary information if French were not required? Packaging will be done according to what the company thinks will market its product effectively, while obeying laws. We have the dietary information we do because of Federal regulations (largely). The answer for you would appear to be better Federal laws regarding more dietary information, non?

Yes, exactly. Replace the laws requiring French labeling on all products all across Canada, and replace it with laws requiring dietary information instead.

It promotes better health and assists people in becoming healthier, so there's actually a use to it.

	05-11-2004 06:55									#206
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Plains of Abraham Quebec Act

Know those, but not the rest (except Trudeau)

Anyway, a large part of my dislike of the Quebecois comes from my visit there. They didn't strike me as particularly nice or welcoming to anyone else, even though I did everything in (badly accented) French. I also saw a lot of even open racism against the Amerindians there (we visited a reservation).

	05-11-2004 06:56									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yes, exactly. Replace the laws requiring French labeling on all products all across Canada, and replace it with laws requiring dietary information instead. It promotes better health and assists people in becoming healthier, so there's actually a use to it.

It's already there. If you want more, lobby the Feds to mandate more, better info.

	05-11-2004 06:58									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Plains of Abraham Quebec Act Know those, but not the rest (except Trudeau) Anyway, a large part of my dislike of the Quebecois comes from my visit there. They didn't strike me as particularly nice or welcoming to anyone else, even though I did everything in (badly accented) French. I also saw a lot of even open racism against the Amerindians there (we visited a reservation).

So you counter by cultivating a dislike for all things Franco?

	05-11-2004 06:59									#209
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No. I'm fine with France. However, I don't have particularly warm feelings or a good opinion of the Quebecois

	05-11-2004 07:00									#210
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That's what I meant.