05-11-2004 14:47									#181
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4) Kerry is an idiot who thought he could sell out American servicemen 30 years ago and be their Commander in Chief today.

What a ****.

	05-11-2004 15:17									#182
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5) Democrats should have copied the Republican attack ads.

John Kerry fought for his country in Vietnam.
Where was Bush?

In the 1970s, John Kerry was a prosecutor putting criminals behind bars.
In the 1970s, Bush was arrested for drunk driving.

In August 2001, the White House was told Bin Laden was planning an attack on the United States.
George Bush was on vacation.

	05-11-2004 15:42									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The jobs market still hasn't fully recovered That's what really matters

The election results say otherwise.

	05-11-2004 15:52									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant I swear to god! If Jefferson, Madison and the rest turned up today, they'd be derided as ivory tower intellectuals and be shot. Jefferson would need one hell of a pick up truck to be accepted into US politics nowadays.

Well, Jefferson would still take that all important slave owner vote.

	05-11-2004 15:55									#185
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by GePap BY what you claim, there would be no "Iraq" without "terrorism", since they are part of the same struggle, NO? Bush won because he and the republicans had a better ground organization and mobilized more religious voters than the dems did young and minorities and their cores.

No, Bush won because he was drawing from a larger pool. The Dems limited themselves by choosing a candidate who was too far to the left. They did a great job at getting out the voters who could stomache Kerry, but in the end it fell short. Intensifying your turnout beyond this is going to suffer from serious diminishing returns. Expanding your pool even a little bit will generate a lot more votes.

	05-11-2004 15:59									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker What's so radical about them? Alot of us are extremely angry at what's going on, and that's sincere, it's not a "left wing pot smoking hippies" crowd. You would never guess I supported Kerry if you met me. I look conservative, act convservative, etc. But I am very angry. There are many like me. Last election people were not angry. This time around almost everyone is LIVID. I supported Kerry because I was ANGRY and felt betrayed.

People aren't attracted to anger. The Dems would be better off detaching themselves from anyone who does "guerilla theatre" or chants "clever" things in unison to the police and the media. Anyone who thinks these things are cool are already on your side.

	05-11-2004 16:09									#187
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sikander The Dems limited themselves by choosing a candidate who was too far to the left.

It boggles the mind

	05-11-2004 16:10									#188
	Re: Liberals need to stop sneering at people Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The conservative parties around the world are just killing their opponents in basic tactics on the stump.

Someone forgot to tell Michael Howard.

	05-11-2004 16:11									#189
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If he was trully seen as "left wing extremist" he would have been crushed like Mondale-certainly would not have won 48% of the vote and 250 electoral votes. People did not vote for him because they percieved him as weak and undecisive, and for not beingt an evangelical christian. That is why Kerry lost- it had little to do with the notion of him as being an "extremist" of the left.

Wrong. The most effective part of the Swift Boat attacks were they drew attention to his radicalism in the 1970s. None of the other stuff stuck, but there was no question about his involvement with the VVAW and the crazy sh!t he testified to in congress.

The election was yours to win. Bush has alienated much of the Republican base with his populist spending, military spending, recklessness in foreign policy etc. He's hurt himslf even worse in the center by aligning himself with the religious right. But Kerry could not take advantage of that. His votes came from further left than Gore's, his only success was that he turned out a higher percentage of them. Much of the country was left with a bitter choice between two candidates who they couldn't support ideologically.

There are no more votes on either the left or the right, all those people voted this time because they both had a candidate who they could relate to, and they turned out like never before. The group who liked or at least could stand Bush was simply larger than the Kerry group. There is a hole between them which you could drive a truck through. Imagine if John McCain had run as an independant candidate for president and had as much money as Kerry did. I think he would have given both Bush and Kerry a run for their money.

	05-11-2004 16:14									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Someone forgot to tell Michael Howard.

I thought Howard won?

	05-11-2004 16:29									#191
	Increase Your PM Length

He's talking about the British conservatives leader - which only shows Social Democrats can do it too.

	05-11-2004 18:18									#192
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Kerry was not too far left. In fact, Kerry appealed to a lot of true conservatives. Kerry's problem is that he let Bush choose the battleground and define the terms of the debate. The Democrats don't need to move to the right - that'd be pointless! Why win elections if you're doing it be espousing the same ideals as the other party? The Democrats need to change public perception of "the left".

	05-11-2004 18:40									#193
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Horse, agreed. A bit of civility from the left would be welcome. We need a battle of ideas, not insults from the left when the rest of us are a little wary of what the left proposes.

Also, IMHO, a lot of the insults flow from the left's "secularism" and that philosphy's basic premise that belief in God is unintelligent.

	05-11-2004 18:46									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Theben All the dems need to do is put up a moderate dixiecrat next time and they'll win, hands down.

*ahem*

Al Gore

Kerry lost the election for a couple of reasons, having neither to do with increasing conservatism nor the South winning the peace. The U.S. has never thrown out an incumbent during a major war. There are other minor factors such as the ineptitude of the Kerry campaign, the rise of evangelicals, gay marriage, etc., but two of the top three reasons for the Bush vote were the WoT and Iraq.

	05-11-2004 18:47									#195
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ned A bit of civility from the left would be welcome.

You go first.

	05-11-2004 18:48									#196
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Wrong. The most effective part of the Swift Boat attacks were they drew attention to his radicalism in the 1970s. None of the other stuff stuck, but there was no question about his involvement with the VVAW and the crazy sh!t he testified to in congress.

Not according to exit polls, which is the only evidence we have.

quote: The election was yours to win. Bush has alienated much of the Republican base with his populist spending, military spending, recklessness in foreign policy etc. He's hurt himslf even worse in the center by aligning himself with the religious right. But Kerry could not take advantage of that. His votes came from further left than Gore's, his only success was that he turned out a higher percentage of them. Much of the country was left with a bitter choice between two candidates who they couldn't support ideologically.

Bull- every poll shows this to be wrong- the republican base was very motivated for Bush the whole time- the base of the republicans are NOT liberterians- they are the religious right. They won the election, not liberterians. Maybe you need a primer on what the republican party is now.

quote: There are no more votes on either the left or the right, all those people voted this time because they both had a candidate who they could relate to, and they turned out like never before. The group who liked or at least could stand Bush was simply larger than the Kerry group. There is a hole between them which you could drive a truck through. Imagine if John McCain had run as an independant candidate for president and had as much money as Kerry did. I think he would have given both Bush and Kerry a run for their money.

One day soon liberterians in the Republican party will have to accept they owe the power they have to the religious right.

	05-11-2004 18:58									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse In FDR's time the Democrats owned the South becuase they were closer to the people.

Wrong. The South was a one-party terrorist-state. The Dem's owned the South because the Dems owned the South.

	05-11-2004 19:04									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin For one thing Kerry touched on hot button issues like gay marriage which are political suicide

Kerry avoided that issue as best he could. It was gay activists, who may have been politically foolish to try it in an election year, but rushed forwards towards freedom and equality when the opportunity presented itself.

quote: also Clinton would get up and speak out against rap music like Queen Latifa advocating killing cops

Sistah Soldier, not Queen Latifah.

quote: and he also pissed off lots of liberals by advocating centrist and conservative issues like welfare reform.

And how's that working out for the poor?

quote: He found issues which were of concern to average Americans, especially the center or right of center guys, which made them think he wasn't your run of the mill lefty.

Perot killed Bush in '92 and Dole was a lousy candidate.

	05-11-2004 19:10									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle The economy is no longer an issue. The recession was over, far over, in April. People did not connect the poor economy with the President.

Consumer confidence was down in October. The recession is over when people feel it is over. People don't feel it's over yet.

	05-11-2004 19:11									#200
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It seems to be a world turned upside down when you look at the facts and see that the majority of americans still voted for Bush.
Ned,
I find a lot of comments you and others make about the left to be insulting. I believe that I am a pretty civil person. I don't believe that you are.
Democrats are not trying to turn the rest of the country gay or make people stop going to church or submit to the will of terrorists or force your daughter to have an abortion. This is the way the Right has painted us. As a group that would take away Americans freedom. This is a dirty lie. So you can't blame us(the left) for being angry about being slandered.

	05-11-2004 19:12									#201
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Re: thread title:

Absolutely true. You're not going to get people to vote for you if you insult them. There are definitely people on the Left (specifically anyone associated with the Democratic Party and/or who has a high profile in the media) who need to soften their rhetoric.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 19:23									#202
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ned Horse, agreed. A bit of civility from the left would be welcome. We need a battle of ideas, not insults from the left when the rest of us are a little wary of what the left proposes. Also, IMHO, a lot of the insults flow from the left's "secularism" and that philosphy's basic premise that belief in God is unintelligent.

I disagree. Ned, please stop stating what democrats believe. Part of our problem is allowing people like yourself to define our position. Democratic position is that the founding fathers got it right when they decided to seperate church and state.
Ned, your model for a religous government would be Saudi Arabia or Iran. Democrats also believe that God gave man a brain to use. That means that when faced with insurmountable evidence, man should use the brains god gave him instead of praying to god for answers. God, is clearly sarcastic, so he would most likely say things like "What are you asking me for?", "Did'nt I give you a brain?", "Duh" , "There is such thing as a stupid question" or give you the wrong answer with a sarcastic sneer. This appears to be what happened to the other 51% of americans. God forgive them for they know not what they're doing.

	05-11-2004 19:28									#203
	Remove this text

Civility is a two-way street, and I don't see much on either side of the spectrum.

I will continue to sneer for a bit, however, 'cause I'm still pissed off.

-Arrian

	05-11-2004 19:37									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse * If you like this thread, vote for horse for Apolyton President - he understands the common man*

Ok, sign me up.

	05-11-2004 19:48									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I disagree. Ned, please stop stating what democrats believe. Part of our problem is allowing people like yourself to define our position. Democratic position is that the founding fathers got it right when they decided to seperate church and state. Ned, your model for a religous government would be Saudi Arabia or Iran. Democrats also believe that God gave man a brain to use. That means that when faced with insurmountable evidence, man should use the brains god gave him instead of praying to god for answers. God, is clearly sarcastic, so he would most likely say things like "What are you asking me for?", "Did'nt I give you a brain?", "Duh" , "There is such thing as a stupid question" or give you the wrong answer with a sarcastic sneer. This appears to be what happened to the other 51% of americans. God forgive them for they know not what they're doing.

	05-11-2004 20:06									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse * If you like this thread, vote for horse for Apolyton President - he understands the common man*

I nomiate Alexander's Horse for Apolyton President , becasue Apolyton derserves him.

	05-11-2004 20:14									#208
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You go first.

Eat **** , loser*. The left are the ones who need to adjust, to stop being losers. You do not expect the winners to adjust. polerization seems to be advatageous to the right at this point. Go on playing to other sides advantage, if it make you feel more significant.






*for dramatic and illustrative effect.

	05-11-2004 20:29									#209
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quote: About 20% of the population identifies themselves as conservatives, 11% calls themselves liberals, and the remaining 69% of the American population is right in the middle.

Those numbers are constructed with glib math and understate the differences. About 34% of voters identified themselves as Conservatives. 17% of voters identified themselves as Liberals. Glib math is then applied (the 60% turnout figure) to get to your numbers. The percentage of voters likely tracks the percentage of the population at large -- it's silly to assume that all conservatives or all liberals voted.

Liberals need to evaluate themselves in relation to the 66% of voters who are not conservatives. It's a tough slog when you have taken 34% of the voters off the table.

	05-11-2004 20:43									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Eat **** , loser*.

My party got between five and six times the vote they got in 2000. It may not be winning the Presidency, but we're growing by leaps and bounds.