13-12-2004 18:24									#361
	Got spare money?

CH, in that case don't. This can wait a couple of hours at least. Everbody invested a lot of time in the game the past week, maybe too much time.

Theseus is right... if we don't take a break for a moment, we might all burn out. I know how difficult that is when important things keep on happening around us, but I was actually thinking on posting something publicly

quote: please forgive us, but gathering storm is nearing mental breakdown. For us, the game is on hold for 48h. Please don't do anything requiring our attention in the mean time, as we will try not to look into this forum, or our own private forum, and thus will not notice it. In case any problems would arrive, we will be back in 2 days. I'm sure more teams can use the beak.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 18:40									#362
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We should let GoW finish their turn first.

Or :

quote: Please forgive us, but Gathering Storm is facing exhaustion, sleep deprivation, unemployment, destitution, relationship breakdown, social collapse, and all the usual symptoms associated with intense DG play. Of course some people might say that this is precisely what GS deserve but that can't be helped, under the circumstances. However, for health and sanity reasons we really must take a 48-hour break from both the public and private forums, and hope that other teams can also use the breather.

	13-12-2004 19:04									#363
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or combine the two ...

quote: Dear Vox, With the momentous geo-political changes occuring in the world, now seems a good time to renew and develop our friendship. Unfortunately we as a team are too exhausted from the demands and rigours of conflict to immediately enter into a dialogue with yourselves with the full focus we'd like. However, once we've had a RL breather and caught up with our lives a bit, we would be keen to open a dialogue with yourselves regarding the future and the possibility of a fruitful and peaceful partnership in the years ahead. Yours, etc GS

	13-12-2004 20:42									#364
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CH
---
I agree with Sleepy, if it was me beeing Lego - at this point in the game - I would end it too.
It's too late for them to start rebuilding and the mental knock-out they got this turn, is enough to call it quits.

	13-12-2004 21:02									#365
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On reflection, we don't really want to do anything to hold up Lego from getting their turn. I'm not sure if I'd ever want to open the save again if I was them, but they might want to get on with it.

There's no reason to hold the game up specifically - we just want to open channels with Vox without getting too involved. I think the latest draft does that.

	13-12-2004 21:06									#366
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I'll say it again: Just reading all the posts to catch up was *exhausting*. You guys who actually played through the last turn should get some rest.

	13-12-2004 21:28									#367
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Yeah... I'll go over MZ's proposal in a couple of hours. Right now, I've got some other urgent matters to tend to.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 22:27									#368
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I don't read the first CH to Vox post as confrontational, but I have the advantage of knowing its intent We shoould get something off to them that is concilitory soon.

	13-12-2004 22:36									#369
	Remove this text

The MZ msgs is sensible, but would really hand them a lot. I am concerned that they did not make much in the way of renumeration. Little acknowledgement of the opening we provided.

The possibility that the pretend war will shutdown our harbors, deprive us of rubber and cancel any lux deals is scary. I do not know if they can make peace and send rubber at once in MP, maybe?

In the long run the idea is good, but I would have like to hear something about the out come of Legos capitol and the rubber on the land.

I thought they mention abandonment of the capitol and a new city, but I am not sure if that is correct. If it is, then I feel a bit better. Either we get the wonders or the must be destroyed.

One problem we have is we cannot afford to press real hard at this time.

	13-12-2004 23:08									#370
	Remove this text

us losing lux is not really an option right now. We are not prepared for this... we would lose quite a few cities. That in itself is enough reason to veto any declaration of war. Plus, we would need to wait for 1 more turn before those deals are reinstated.

That is a major disadvantage is in itself. I really do not want to lose half our cities to disorder.

There are other considerations as well. Yes, they do not acknowledge what we did for the both of us, and are quite greedy... I think that that one sentence I sent in reponse did set them to think on this, though. While it is tricky to push too hard at this moment, we can't let them roll over us either.

As to the exploit side of things... I don't like fake wars. Just yesterday I said that declaring war to RP, to start their GA and end our mob was too cheesy for me. Now, GoW wants to do it for their own personal goals? Hmmm... at this moment I'm far from convinced it is a legitimate reason.

They are going to take 3 of our slaves, and destroy 2 marines. What do we get in return?
- 170 gold, half of the price of stealing Lego's map.
- rubber, which we would have gotten anyway in normal circumstances
- all the cities we need (these are undefended, heavily resisting cities. We would lose up to 10% of them the first turn.)

What do they get? safe cities. Safe forces. and our inability to attack much. Lego's forces can only go one way: they can come to us (or stay where they are)

It's not a good deal at the moment. Either we change it so we get more out of it, or we outright dismiss it. We've got enough reason: the only fake war we did was against ND, to solve a bug.

So, my vote: no to the extended proposal of them. we don't gain anything, and it 's cheesyness factor is off the scale... besides, when losing lux, we would really get hurt. They can prepare for that by setting their slider, we cannot.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 23:12									#371
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Yes, there are far too many negs for us in the MZ plan. We should decline.

DeepO, shall I ping that second Vox message off? I think it's a good start and there have been nods.

	13-12-2004 23:35									#372
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I agree we cannot take the deal for our own sake and it would be a slap in the face to Lego.

I would tell them we did not use a fake to go into mob or start GA's and do not want to use it to further crush Lego or save troops.

The rest we can talk about. I don't mind thel oss of the marines, but to not even mention any compensation, is a bit disconcerning.

I don't know if it is greed or an over sight. We have to recoqnize that they can see we are ripe for the pickings, if they get to do it their way.

	13-12-2004 23:39									#373
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and to follow up on this, here's my proposal to send to MZ. CH, please do not send it yet, I'm sure we want to wait for other opinions, not in the least for Aeson.

quote: MZ, This proposal of yours has made us think... a lot. While it is certainly inventive, we've got a couple of big problems with it. First of all, declaring war on us is quite unacceptable right now. - the 3 slaves and 2 marines are not really an issue, we can afford to lose those. We were hoping to use them as distractions for Lego anyway, to lure them out of their cities, or at least let them battered tanks not heal next turn. That's not really the point. More casulaties have fallen, and a lot more will before we are done with Lego. - however, it is our understanding, that by declaring war we would lose our lux deal. We would lose the ability to receive rubber from you. You can't offer peace and lux at the same time, without an accepted peace deal, we don't have open trade routes. While the rubber would be bad, the lux is disastrous... you can compensate for this by using the slider, we can not. We would lose many cities to disorder (the un-ww doesn't help enough, we are already getting hit by Lego ww) - and, we do not like fake wars. We have discussed this in the context of RP as well, and decided against it. We are not going to start RP's GA by sacrificing one of our units. Nor are we going to fake a war to get out of mobilization. So we can't fake war, just because a couple of our slaves are in the way either. Further, what real benefits would it bring to us? As far as I can tell, not much. Smith is the only thing worth it on Legoland right now. It would be cool to keep Legopolis, just for that one wonder. But it holds a serious risk as well. Legopolis is in disorder, and while I didn't calculate it precisely, it has somewhere in the region of 10-30% chance of flipping next turn (10% when not in disorder when we get it, but it was built before EotS, so there is no way to set entertainers if it is in disorder) The same happens to all other cities: flipping chance of undefended cities, in disorder, with many resisters present are simply huge. There is no point in keeping these cities, they are best abandoned. The aqua and hospital in them are costing more in upkeep that the corrupted commerce can bring us. Don't forget, Lego still has 14 transports... somewhere. If one wrong harbor flips to them, we enlarge the problem, instead of controlling it. Do we gain extra protection for our exposed units? Not really. Your cavs are not important at all, if Lego would attack them, they have served their purpose twice. They are not going to do anything more, except perhaps be used in a future settler blitz. Our tanks (and the couple you will have left in the open) are not important either. We have some 25 tanks in the open, Lego is welcome to attack them. They will lose lots of units doing so, and expose all other units which we can easily pick clean. Besides, the tanks Lego still has (only a good guess, but this will be very close to the truth): 1 2/5 11 2/4 1 1/3 2 1/4 there are only a few tanks that can actually win from a cav, let alone from a full health tank. So... no gain, a lot of costs, and possibly even the public outcry to deal with over unfair tactics. No thanks, not worth it. Cutting Abilene from the rest is different. Abilene does not hold 2-move attackers (well, a couple of cavs, but who cares), but if we can keep the defenders to reach Jackson or Dye, we would be best off. All this pillaging of roads does not have to be seen from the attackers side, only from the defenders side. 50 infs, plus an inf army should be pinned in Abilene if we can. Where those damaged attackers go is not important right now. I can understand that from your side, it would pay off to cut off most units, and declare war on us. However, think of your ally, please. For us, there is no gain, only a lot of costs. We weren't selfish when we attacked Stanwix (to be correct: we knew it would be very important to our alliance, even if in the end it would gain you a lot more gold and those 29 artilleries than we would gain by it), so it is our hope you also see our point here. We are not helped by this manoeuvre, on the contrary even, it costs us a lot. DeepO

	13-12-2004 23:40									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus DeepO, shall I ping that second Vox message off? I think it's a good start and there have been nods.

Yes, go ahead. I'm sorry I hadn't commented on that before. It looks good, exactly the right tone

DeepO

	13-12-2004 23:41									#375
	Increase the size of your Attachments

vmxa, a bit of a cross post. I agree... I'm not sure of all your points are handled in the proposal, but it will be close.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 23:49									#376
	Got spare money?

Besides, I think MZ did see the light regarding acknowledging what we did for them. His message is still very "Hey, we lost most, we deserve most", but the GoW news thing he last posted has a very different thing. In that, he talks about GoW's casualties (and he has every right for that), but he also talks about our sacrifices and moves which enabled GoW to conquer the city. That's a very dramatic change over the course of 12 hours.

I'm not sure if he is just honeying our mouths (wipe our sleaves would be the Dutch translation, I'm not sure on the English version ), but his diplomatic side has felt we are not exactly pleased by his claim to victory, when we did the real work. So let's not push that too far. We do not need to be hailed as the big conquerers... if he would see our point in this latest discussion, we get enough praise and recognition.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 23:55									#377
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Seems good to me DeepO.

I have not said anything about the 48 hr bit, as I feel it is not my place. You are doing the hard part, the turn play and it should be your call.

	14-12-2004 00:00									#378
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I think the phrase in the US is "buttering us up". In means to make us feel good, usually falsely.

The honey part, I guess would be "you get more flies with honey".
To mean that being sweet will attract more, than being stern. More likely to have people do what you want by a reward, rather than fear.

It is hard to convay the full meaning to other teams, without the interaction of converstaion. You toss in the subtleness of language and it is a wonder we manage at all.

	14-12-2004 00:01									#379
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

For me it would really help to take a break. I want (and should) be present in all important things here, which means that as long as this forum is active, I'm active. So basically the only way of having a break, is to have a collective holiday.

I can imagine more people feel the same, I've got the luxury of being able to spend all my time, not just my free time. So this has to weigh on a lot more people, you inclusive.

But CH is right, we can't take a break until GoW sends its turn onwards. this has to be dealt with first.

and of course, I will stay accessible, it's not that I'm going to cut my internet connection, and put my pc in a locked box for 2 days

DeepO

	14-12-2004 00:02									#380
	Tired of ads?

Yeah the only way to stop the action is for us to have the save.

	14-12-2004 00:04									#381
	Inflate your Upload Space

BTW how do manage to be represented as not being online, but manage to post so quickly? Are you logging on and off all the time?

I look at your bulb and it is not yellow. I post and see you have posted as well?

	14-12-2004 00:05									#382
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buttering us up... that was what I was looking for, yes.

As to language barriers: I'm used to them. It creates some awkward moments from time to time, but with a little patience on both sides it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Besides, I've got the tendency of talking a lot (some might call it babbling), in all those things I say, at least once it should be correct

DeepO

	14-12-2004 00:08									#383
	Tired of ads?

vmxa, it is a option in your control panel. It doesn't work everywhere, though, in the member list (e.g. of this forum), PM list, and a couple of more obscure places, you can still have my actual status. A bit of a poly bug that it is not done everywhere.

I just found out that if people see you online, they tend to expect you to answer as well... even if that bulb stays lit half an hour after your last page request.

Besides, there are others who do this, Trip for one (I think)

DeepO

	14-12-2004 00:14									#384
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suggested nuances :

line 3 : How about "far from ideal" for "quite unnacceptable"

3rd Para from end : "No thanks, not worth it" could be omitted without losing any meaning. The previous sentance ("No gain ... high cost ... public outcry) strongly implies it.

Final Para: "However, think of your ally, please" could also be omitted at this stage. In fact there is more which could be held back for use in case he persists. It might be worthwhile avoiding the word 'selfish' this early on, in case of misunderstanding.

How about :

quote: I can understand that from your side, it would pay off to isolate most units, and declare war on us. For GS, there is no gain in this, only heavy costs. We hope our attack on Stanwick, and the treasure and artillery your subsequent breakout harvested is evidence of GS commitment to the harmony or our alliance. We would therefore like to decline this proposal.

	14-12-2004 00:28									#385
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Vox message sent.

	14-12-2004 00:31									#386
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the first few things are certainly an improvement. The last paragraph... I don't know... it sounds awfully polite all of a sudden. I wanted to keep the tone light and friendly.

waht about

quote: I can understand that from your side, it would pay off to isolate most units, declaring war on us. However for us, there is no gain, only heavy costs. We were primarily concerned with you when we attacked Stanwix (to be correct: we knew it would be very important to our alliance, even if in the end it would gain you 29 arties, and a lot more gold than we would gain), so it is our hope you also see our point here. We are not helped by this manoeuvre, on the contrary even, it costs us a lot.

I don't want to say we decline a proposal, it's not really a proposal as such. GoW can declare war on us without our approval, so we can only let them know we don't like it.

Plus, I'd like to mention that we know they gained more than us, while it would be perfectly possible to let them rot in their fort, and take 8 or 10 cities next turn ourselves before GoW could react with their troops still on boats. We do not ask for half of all the gold they received, while I think that that would be perfectly acceptable, and if we didn't need GoW as a friend we wouldn't hesitate to ask for compensation.

I'm not prepared to say directly to them: hey, we didn't need you anymore, so this was a gift. No you give something to us as well. But I don't mind if a hint of that is present.

Meanwhile, I also want to imply that they still need us. It's too easy to just not give us rubber, but alone they can't handle Lego atm. The next casualties are going to fall on our side.

DeepO

	14-12-2004 00:34									#387
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but perhaps we don't need to be so explicit in mentioning what exactly they gained... the phrase of "your subsequent gains" is probably better.

DeepO

	14-12-2004 00:34									#388
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Yeah, I spent 20 minutes trying to make it polite! I thought the original a little harsh but your revision looks fine to me!

	14-12-2004 00:36									#389
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polite may not be the correct term, but at least it's formal. This sounds like me, writing a letter to my land lord or something similar. I don't think of MZ as my land lord

DeepO

	14-12-2004 01:18									#390
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quote: Just wondering if there has been any discussion on Operation Quarantine which I PMed to DeepO this morning since I havent heard from him since... Cheers -MZ

Maybe we shoudl send that now ..