13-12-2004 06:14									#271
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Did we hear anything from RP?

I suspect that all those bombers and arties are going to make and ND vs GoW out of the question.

	13-12-2004 06:16									#272
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You mean after their last question on how they were going to start their GA? no...

You know what I would be interested in to know: did GoW get a message that our spy failed? It's a bit strange to ask, but it would be interesting information. If they didn't get any message, we try with all other nations next turn...

(they will have to wait a bit, as we only have something like 15% chance right now)

DeepO

	13-12-2004 06:21									#273
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So... Legoland has fallen. They lost 23 cities (one of them a fort) in 1 turn time... 24 if you count Tiperrary. That is a decisive victory for sure...

I really pity them.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:11									#274
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Well, we know what could be coming to us.

	13-12-2004 07:20									#275
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No... let's learn from their mistakes, please. I've been looking at our map for quite a while now, and if we are willing to give up some commerce and production, I'm certain that we can defend rather well against settler blitzing. Moving Monsoon is not even necessary, it is already safe. We do need to get some new fortresses, and dismantle a couple old ones... and we can't keep all the forks safe as our territory is so packed.

I don't want to do it right now, nor in the next turn (except the 2 forests protecting Eli), but I want to have a very decent look at our defense plan again. Without proper warning times, this is going to be very difficult, though, so we need those subs at their positions asap.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:20									#276
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Message sent to GoW.

	13-12-2004 07:22									#277
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Oh, but once MA are available, nothing can be done to stop blitzing, except pillaging all roads not on a mountain. Let's not do this before we are actually invaded

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:24									#278
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I think subs should play an important part in our defences. Yes, the stats are lousy but being hidden can be highly valuable. Knowing something about the enemy that they don't know you know can't be measured in ADM or HP. Lego's subs have been a pesky pain for us and our 3 did a good job or two while we had them.

	13-12-2004 07:26									#279
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In fact if we didn't have that spare destroyer at Hub 2 Lego would still be in one piece.

	13-12-2004 07:28									#280
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Nuke subs can still carry cruise missiles, right? But they don't upgrade from normal subs? Missiles are going to play a larger role too, I guess. Bombers to get some hp off, missiles to finish. Not for the major battles, but for those cases where you just miss one attacker... we've been in that situations a couple of times before.

BTW, do missiles on nuke subs chain as well, or can they only be loaded in harbor?

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:33									#281
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GoW broke through with 3 Infantry and 2 Tanks left with movement.

	13-12-2004 07:36									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus In fact if we didn't have that spare destroyer at Hub 2 Lego would still be in one piece.

Yeah... but like that, there are a lot of things to say. If we had 1 1/4 DD left last turn, the situation would have been a lot differently. Lego might have known they couldn't block us (given their assumptions for this turn, they were indeed more cautious than last turn. we had 9.7% with 7 transports, but only needed the 10th to succeed in order to destroy 8 cities. Chances would have been a lot better than against 3 BBs this turn).

So, last turn 2-ships blocks around Sando, meaning they couldn't block the fork between Sando and Quanto, meaning more defenders needed... you could go on like that.

In the end, Civ is a game where you have to deal with luck. Only one sub between Hurricane and hub 2 was needed (of course, the risk of running into a sub does increase as we got closer to Legoland, after all we have been destroying them by the boatload (at least as long as we had subs to spy)). We got lucky... after Lego got lucky... after we got lucky again (that in turn 3, their BB stack couldn't reach our Northern fleet), etc. It's best not to think about this too much. The implications can be huge, as we currently see.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:36									#283
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That's a point, nook-subs are available with Fission, and they don't upgrade so we woudn't want many subs before then going obsolete. Having said that, ISTR being disappointed with the stats of N-Subs - they might not be much better, and build costs might favour the basic version for some purposes.

We probably need plenty of DD too - for range and grunt, so we may be looking at a significant navy - especially to guard againt nuclear subs off our coast.

	13-12-2004 07:38									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson GoW broke through with 3 Infantry and 2 Tanks left with movement.

And we learned something new: defensive bombardment only works once per turn, not once per attacking civ.

Good analysis, Aeson, I think this was one of your results. And they followed your recipe to the letter (pretending it was theirs, but oh well). Only the bombardment to lure the fighter out we didn't think off... and that didn't work either

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:39									#285
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I'm not sure we want normal subs, when nukes are around. Didn't they get more mp?

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:46									#286
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Well MZ went with the Infantry as "bombardment" against Lego Infantry, which wasn't quite how I suggested they be used. I had them more against Tanks. It looked like it evened out. They got more kills with their Marines, but their Infantry didn't do as much damage.

I'm just relieved that there wasn't some difference between C3C and PtW that wasn't being accounted for.

	13-12-2004 07:47									#287
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Good analysis, Aeson, I think this was one of your results. And they followed your recipe to the letter

Yes, A brilliantly-conducted symphony of carnage, and a real eye-opener into the subtler arts of stack combat. Thankyou, Aeson.

	13-12-2004 07:48									#288
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Wow... poor friggin' Lego. I guess it's best to shoot the horse when it's been lamed anyway.

Do we really need to maintain a presence on Legoland? I know about the rubber, but other than that?

	13-12-2004 07:50									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Well MZ went with the Infantry as "bombardment" against Lego Infantry, which wasn't quite how I suggested they be used. I had them more against Tanks.

two possibilities... either they didn't spot it, or they analysed it themselves, and thought their method was near enough. Somehow, I think it was the first option

Nevertheless, it worked out nicely.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:52									#290
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I hope pics are on the way

	13-12-2004 07:53									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Do we really need to maintain a presence on Legoland? I know about the rubber, but other than that?

rubber and future resources, but other than that the lux would be nice. It seems MZ has some kind of "what you conquer, you can keep" kind of deal in mind... if that means GoW can keep the rubber and the dyes, he better forgets about it.

One more thing: if we want to have 25% of the territory to get into the UN to be voted upon (in case we don't build it ourselves), we might need to settle the land. If only for 1 turn.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 07:54									#292
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And for what GoW has left that has already attacked:

4 Infantry:

3 1/4
1 2/5

22 Marines:

1 2/3
2 1/4
9 2/4
3 3/4
3 4/4
1 2/5
2 3/5
1 4/5

2 Tanks: (both with a blitz left)

1 1/4
1 2/5

	13-12-2004 07:59									#293
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How many Tanks does Lego have left?

	13-12-2004 07:59									#294
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I'm guessing they are going to use one of their settlers, to build a city on top of them. They will have to rebuil Stanwix, or they can't reach the rest of the cities... but they can afford to spare one settler for a new harbor on top of their arts and damaged troops.

4 damaged infantry is not exactly a lot, though. But Lego will have less than 30 tanks to attack, even after shelling from within Dye and Jackson.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 08:01									#295
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cross posting...
they started with 27, and just lost 12. That makes 15... add another 4 at most for next turn, so 19 max (now where did I get that 30?)

DeepO

	13-12-2004 08:07									#296
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Has there been another significant PBEM where so much has been taken away so quickly?

	13-12-2004 08:09									#297
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well, the doughnut PBEM, where H_E got the uranium and left is famous... other than that I know of none. But than again, I'm only involved in this game, and don't read much of the rest of the forum anymore. It gets old after a couple of years, and once this game has finished all I can do is wait for cIV.

DeepO

	13-12-2004 08:12									#298
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO So... Legoland has fallen. They lost 23 cities (one of them a fort) in 1 turn time... 24 if you count Tiperrary. That is a decisive victory for sure... I really pity them. DeepO

Where did you get this info? I have not see any post on the public forum or in the GoW here?

	13-12-2004 08:17									#299
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We took 9
GoW's taken 1
GoW should be able to take 8 with Cavalry
Would need to take 5 with Settlers+Tanks

I'm interested in where those Transports are. Could they be hiding in the inland Sea?

	13-12-2004 08:26									#300
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Camp David can be taken with only a tank, no cav or settler needed. And the same should happen with the city at 336 of Camp David (can't see its name at the last screenshot). So 8 cavs, 5 tanks, and 3 settlers needed. That leaves 1 settler for Fort Stanwix, and one for the harbor...

Okay, they might be one settler short. But at least Lego lost 22 (or 23) cities in 1 turn.

Transports in the inland sea? Could be... That would mean they would go East (as Invoice would be destroyed, so they only can go towards GoW), or be disbanded.

Seeing as one transport was blocking Abilene, I think at least a couple of them are guarding the South passage, and possibly ND. Subs will by now be long moved towards us. One sub could have seen that GoW's stack is simply too strong to attack heads-on... Lego will harrass it with their BBs, but only in case they can end their turn in port.

DeepO