18-12-2004 20:39									#1
	Sparta-Gaian Relations part II Increase the size of your Attachments

As the previous thread has reached 500 posts, I started a new one.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Mind you, who do we hold responsible if the Gaians actually do build the CDF now? It would have been nice to receive some official word from them as well.

Perhaps we could send Chaos Theory a PM like this?

"Hi Chaos Theory,

The Angels have told us you have agreed not to build the Citizen's Defence Force, as part of the deal to give them Ethical Calculus without any trade embargo towards you. Could you officially confirm this promise? We thought it would be better to hear it from the faction itself instead of a third party.

Also, while the Angels are free to trade Ethical Calculus to you, it is not forbidden for us to trade Ethical Calculus to you. We would therefore like to offer Ethical Calculus for sale to you, for a lower price than the Angels suggest. Are you interested in such a possible trade?

Greetings,

Someone"

Or do you think the Angels would be pissed off if we tried to compete with them in selling EthCalc?

	18-12-2004 23:26									#2
	Re: Sparta-Gaian Relations part II Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Perhaps we could send Chaos Theory a PM like this? "Hi Chaos Theory, The Angels have told us you have agreed not to build the Citizen's Defence Force, as part of the deal to give them Ethical Calculus without any trade embargo towards you. Could you officially confirm this promise? We thought it would be better to hear it from the faction itself instead of a third party. Also, while the Angels are free to trade Ethical Calculus to you, it is not forbidden for us to trade Ethical Calculus to you. We would therefore like to offer Ethical Calculus for sale to you, for a lower price than the Angels suggest. Are you interested in such a possible trade? Greetings, Someone"

Great idea!

quote: Or do you think the Angels would be pissed off if we tried to compete with them in selling EthCalc?

"Ohhh the Angels are mad at me.. I'm so scared...oh the Angels! Uh-oh the Angels are coming to get me! Oh don't let the Angels come after me, they're so big and strong...Oh, protect me from the Angels! The Angels..."

http://www.earthstation1.com/TVWavFiles/germans.wav

	19-12-2004 00:03									#3
	Re: Re: Sparta-Gaian Relations part II Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen "Ohhh the Angels are mad at me.. I'm so scared...oh the Angels! Uh-oh the Angels are coming to get me! Oh don't let the Angels come after me, they're so big and strong...Oh, protect me from the Angels! The Angels..."

I have to agree with Snoddasmannen on that one.

	19-12-2004 03:12									#4
	Re: Sparta-Gaian Relations part II Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Maniac "Hi Chaos Theory, The Angels have told us you have agreed not to build the Citizen's Defence Force, as part of the deal to give them Ethical Calculus without any trade embargo towards you. Could you officially confirm this promise? We thought it would be better to hear it from the faction itself instead of a third party.

I'm OK with this - just prudent business planning

quote: Also, while the Angels are free to trade Ethical Calculus to you, it is not forbidden for us to trade Ethical Calculus to you. We would therefore like to offer Ethical Calculus for sale to you, for a lower price than the Angels suggest. Are you interested in such a possible trade?

I'm very uncomfortable with this - it smacks of double crossing given that the Angels are doing our Int Int research for us on the undertaking that they'd be free to onward trade Ethical Calculus to the Gaians without restrictions

quote: Or do you think the Angels would be pissed off if we tried to compete with them in selling EthCalc?

I'd say they'd be within their rights - if we did that - to say to us "Thanks for Soc Psych and Ethical Calculus - go do your own Int Int research - we owe you nothing as you broke the deal/understanding that we had

	19-12-2004 03:29									#5
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Just read the answer from the Angels, concerning our recent deal. Since I was right about the Angels, and their honesty, we don't need to cross them anymore. We wouldn't want a war, or deterioration of our relationship. So, let's keep this straight, allowing them to do the trade, without spoiling it.

Not just yet.

	19-12-2004 05:42									#6
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I'll abstain on the EthCalc proposal, so this means two to one in favour of only asking about the CDF. PM sent.

	19-12-2004 13:14									#7
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Well I'm surprised we didn't go with the EthCalc proposal. I really didn't see anything either on the lines or between them about us not trading it with the Gaians as well. But yeah, it will probably help our relations with the Angels so I can certainly see the point.

However, I think we should point out this generosity to the Angels. Or they might think we just didn't think of the idea

	19-12-2004 14:07									#8
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I know what you mean, Snoddasmannen, and it pains my heart to do so. But let's face it - the Angels are very far, and a war would be difficult. And even without a war, bad relations would hurt us more than them. For now, the simplest way to handle that is, to make them like us.

	19-12-2004 17:11									#9
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Pfft, had I gotten here in time I would have said: propose the EthCalc trade to them to undercut the Angels. Oh well, nothing has been lost yet.

	19-12-2004 18:29									#10
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Well indeed nothing's lost yet. If there's a majority for proposing to sell EthCalc to the Gaians, Kassi could always send a second PM.

Edit: I just noticed I already received a PM back from Chaos Theory. Chance for Kassiopeia to take over if you want to.

His reply:

quote: That is accurate. We hear you have likewise agreed not to build the Ascetic Virtues SP.

	19-12-2004 19:03									#11
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I'm a bit confused. Who has traded EthCalc to whom? Your opening post is a bit unclear to me,

"The Angels have told us you have agreed not to build the Citizen's Defence Force, as part of the deal to give them Ethical Calculus without any trade embargo towards you."

= "The Angels have told the Spartans that the Gaians have agreed not to build the CDF, as part of the deal to give the Gaians EthCalc without any trade embargo towards the Gaians."

Why would the Gaians have an embargo towards the Gaians? They can't trade themselves technology!

Then,

"Also, while the Angels are free to trade Ethical Calculus to Gaians, it is not forbidden for Spartans to trade Ethical Calculus to Gaians. Spartans would therefore like to offer Ethical Calculus for sale to Gaians, for a lower price than the Angels suggest. Are Gaians interested in such a possible trade?"

Okay, this I'm glarking.

So the Angels have proposed to offer EthCalc to the Gaians but we could undercut them. Is that it?

	19-12-2004 19:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia = "The Angels have told the Spartans that the Gaians have agreed not to build the CDF, as part of the deal to give the Angels EthCalc without any trade embargo towards the Gaians."

We have given Ethical Calculus to the Angels.

	19-12-2004 19:32									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Fellow Officers of the Junta:

The understood deal is:

Sparta >> Angels: Social Psych and Ethical Calculus, the latter being unencumbered by any trade embargo. The Angels have specifically told us that they wish this tech unencumbered as they are engaged in a tech-co-ordination with the Gaians.

Angels switch from Soc Psych (currently being researched by them) to Intellectual Integrity and send it to us. We agree not to build the Ascetic Virtues Special Project. The Angels and the Gaians agree not to build the Citizens Defense Force

Now i'm no lawyer, just an Engineer who ia also the head of CRYPTEIA, but I maintain that if we turn around now and offer Ethical Calculus to the Gaians that we are breaking our deal with the Angels - which has the implied - and understood by us - side deal that the Angels will trade Ethical Calculus to the Gaians for valuable considerations from the Gaians

I am vehemently opposed to such a double cross by Sparta - it smacks too much of a certain furore surrounding the trade of Doctrine: Initiative in a parallel universe (which co-incidently involved some of the same parties)

I would feel honour bound to resign from the Junta were this proposed offer to be made to the Gaians

Lt-Col Googlie

	20-12-2004 10:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Fellow Officers of the Junta: ... I would feel honour bound to resign from the Junta were this proposed offer to be made to the Gaians Lt-Col Googlie

I may not understand your reasons, but I respect your position in the Junta to realize you are more important to us than the profit which might have been gained from the trade with the Gaians. I therefore reluctantly withdraw my vote.

I will recommend to the Junta however, that we dock the expected gain (oh say 50 ec) from your salary at the rate of 1 ec for the next 50 years

Now off to work I go, and then I start my 2 week holiday. Hopefully I'll still drop by here for an occasional stupid question or two.

	20-12-2004 17:53									#15
	Tired of ads?

I'd like to second Snoddasmannen: While I don't fully understand why you're specifically opposed to this particular trade offer, and while I don't see any big similarities between the Doc:Ini theft and this matter, my attitude is one of "Hey, if you feel so strongly about it, let's do it as you prefer. "

To better understand your position for future reference though, could I ask your thoughts on the following hypothetical scenario?

1) If we had made a research deal with the Angels where they gave us a tech and in return we would give them Mind/Machine Interface after we had researched it a few years down the road,
2) If we are planning to attack the Angels a few turns after having researched MMI and built sufficient choppers and drop troops,
3) If this war will be the final showdown between us and any remaining opposition, the battle to decide who will the game, and we therefore don't expect to do any trading with other factions anymore during the remainder of the game,

would you:
a) break our agreement with the Angels, not give them MMI, and attack them as planned, with increased chances for victory.
b) keep our agreement with the Angels, give them MMI and THEN declare war on them, having fulfilled all our obligations.

	20-12-2004 18:15									#16
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I'm certainly not going with a proposal that'd force Googlie to resign!

	20-12-2004 20:59									#17
	Remove this text

The analogy isn't quite the same.

If we owed them a tech down the road, and attacked, then no, I wouldn't send the tech. Much as I wouldn't have expected Morgan to pay us outstanding ec's if they had decided to declare vendetta as a result of our probe actions (the game suspends debt payments during Vendettas - our loan from Zak is still recorded, but with an asterisk)

But the proposal to sell EthCalc to the Gaians, in my view, would break a treaty trade between Treatied partners (Sparta and the Angels). It was negotiated in good faith, and we can't even claim that we didn't know that onward trading of that particular technology at this particular time was a key part of it - it was the deal-enabler, in fact. They told us that, but just were trusting enough not to put a clause in to deny us trying to trade it to the Gaians before they could execute their part of whatever leapfrog they were negotiating with the Gaians.

My view is that if we tried the double cross, then we can forget ever again dealing with the Angels (and I'm not sure that the Gaians would even deal with us anyway, for the sake of saving a few ec's or hoarding a tech from the A's. That'd probably sow such distrust among these 2 that they wouldn't consider it.

So, in a nutshell, I don't see any upside whatsoever, just downsides - the biggest being the loss of honour and credibility for the Spartan Officer negotiating and signing the Angels' deal

	21-12-2004 00:45									#18
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Now that I've learned all the particularities of the trade and the agreement we've had with the Angels, I find myself in agreement with Googlie.

	25-12-2004 21:15									#19
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To Chaos Theory:

"Woops sorry for the late reply. As we don't have an embassy anymore, I forgot about this PM after reading it and posting it in my private forum.
Anyway to confirm your inquiry, we have indeed promised the Angels not to pursue Ascetiv Virtues.

Merry Christmas,

Maniac"

	27-12-2004 06:07									#20
	Remove this text

Rather than open another new thread, I'll pose the question here, where it is somewhat apropos:

In about 3 turns the Pegasus will pick up R-112.

I believe that we'll then have a choice as to a future route, whether to run southeast to/along Gaian lands or southwest to/along Angels lands.

With a Longstrider on board, which do we want to infiltrate? gaians or Angels?

With an Impact Rover on board, do we want to pop any pods on either's landmass that we may opportunistically see on our travels?

(Would they consider that a causus bellus? Would they then try to mindcontrol R-112? - would they succeed in the trying?)

	27-12-2004 06:21									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think going to Gaia would be best.

Some reasons:

I assume Gaia is less likely to have probe defences than the Data Angels.

As SCC Invincible has already explored the eastern Gaian coastline, we know there are lots of unity pods there ripe for the popping. (Perhaps they follow some policy not to pop any pod unless it's within a base radius?) We have no idea if there are any unity pods left on the Angel coastline.

If the Angels would think of infiltration as a casus belli, we could lose our deal for Intellectual Integrity. Gaia doesn't like us, so we have little to lose there.

Btw, IIRC we only signed a five-year peace treaty with the Angels and Gaians, so legally speaking we could enter their territory to pop pods without breaking any agreement.

quote: Would they then try to mindcontrol R-112?

If we always use R-112's first MP to pop the pod, and use the second MP to move back into the SNC Pegasus, they'll never have a chance to mindcontrol.

	27-12-2004 14:16									#22
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I also support going for infiltration of Gaia No way should we try it with the Angels.

And I'd love to see their reaction if we pop an earthquake on them

	27-12-2004 20:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen And I'd love to see their reaction if we pop an earthquake on them

Yeah, go take those pods from Gaia. Might be nothing, might be a lot. It's not like they can help it.

	27-12-2004 22:57									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen And I'd love to see their reaction if we pop an earthquake on them

'Cept we'd lose the Pegasus

But Gaia it is then for Pippi 2

	02-01-2005 17:26									#25
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Any thoughts on the Gaians and the war? How large is the possibility of them joining in on the fray despite their war with Yang? Is their military in any shape?

	02-01-2005 17:54									#26
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If we could just get reassurance that they and the Angels won't help the Morgans, that would be a great thing. I doubt they have the strength to help us attack though.

	02-01-2005 20:07									#27
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How would we go about assuring them though? I do think our tech broker post is important here - they have no contact as such with Morgan, so any attempts of co-ordination would be haphazard at best, whilst they can continue to have a beneficial trade companionship with us.

With the Gaian embassy down permanently, how should I contact the Gaians? Send Chaos a PM?

	02-01-2005 21:14									#28
	Got spare money?

Right. I offerred to restart an embassy, but got the message that they were happy as things were using PM's

With Morgan getting more of a naval force it's only a matter of time before they meet the Angels and the Gaians.

I've suggested elsewhere that we consider selling - maybe even gifting - for their neutrality - Ecol Eng to both. It'll be the only current tech that Morgan has that they don't and it'll remove a bargaining chip from Morgan's hands if we can pre-empt him.

Normally I'd go for a slew of cash, but given what the Angels have been saying about building their Network Nodes I don't think they'll have much to spare.

I don't klnow what the gaians priorities are, whether they have cash to spare (maybe sell to them and let them get something from the Angels for it)

But Ecol eng has to be attractive to them both as it'll give them a huge minerals boost - so maybe guaranteed neutrality plus a future tech from the Angels and guaranteed neutrality plus some cash - let's not get too greedy here - from the Gaians?

	02-01-2005 22:36									#29
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Sounds good. But a tech from the Angels won't go. They already owe us IntInt, and I'd rather not make the deal even longer - just look at what Morgan did to a long deal. I think we need to go with some cash from both, perhaps not even right now - not from the Angels.

	02-01-2005 23:04									#30
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I don't think we should bribe them on the approach. First let's try to find out their attitude. It's quite possible that they recognize Morgan as being the biggest threat, especially now that Sparta is tied up

If they weaken us, it will just improve things for the Morganites. The best thing for them to do is to aid the weaker part, since that prolongs the conflicts, which is in their interest. If one of us actually wins the war, that team will probably win the game, and they must realize this.

So the way to play this is probably to act weak ... Tell them that we don't have the infrastructure to mount a serious attack right now, "what can you do to help us?"

And then we should just show them that Morgan makes 130 ec:s per turn. I still can't get over that ...