11-02-2005 15:21									#121
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I have sent the message as detailed above to Chaos Theory, and I've also asked both parties for clarification on the issue you've brought up, Googlie. I think I even understood what you meant, after reading the sentence through a few times.

	12-02-2005 14:04									#122
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I have some bad feelings regarding this tech trade. If we do give them eco-eng preaccepted they have the possibility to completely rip us off, and then the Gaian/Angel axis will have been given 3 techs in exchange for adaptive economics (nice deal ).

Wouldn't you all have considered doing this if you were the Gaians? I think the division of the human factions into three parts is quite evident, and I think we're the strongest one. Why shouldn't the others gang up on us?

	12-02-2005 21:13									#123
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Ah, someone who shares my worries.

It's quite obvious the Gaians don't care much about their relations with us. So why shouldn't they betray us after they got EcolEng?

On the other hand, since the Morganites are now in contact with the Angels, EcolEng could indirectly reach the Gaians via them, so it's not like we're giving away an extremely important tech or so (though of course after getting EcolEng the Gaians could always select Doc:Ini instead of IntInt) even if the Gaians would betray us. So from that point of view one could say the possible benefits of getting IntInt earlier outweigh the possible risks of Gaia betraying us.

Still personally I'd recommend not giving the Gaians EcolEng yet this turn. We can use as excuse that we want a specific date when they'll research their next tech before giving the final agreement to the deal. An advantage of this course of action would be that we can see the first Gaian-Angel reactions on our Morgan Industries obliteration next year, and then judge better whether we can trust them to fulfill their part of the deal.


Oh btw for the record, IIRC the Gaians would have 15 techs after getting EcolEng. This means IntInt is currently at stand "2" in the mod3 roulette, and them getting another tech before switching research would make them unable to select IntInt.

For the Angels IIRC they would have 20 techs after getting IntInt. Cyberethics would then be at stand 0 though apparently, meaning they would be unable to select it. So they'd need another tech (such as EcoEng) to be able to select Cyberethics. So perhaps we should ask the Angels whether they're sure they could select Cyberethics after getting IntInt? Chance is they could of course, because they are already scheduled to get EcoEng from Gaia. If they don't though, AFAIK we giving them EcoEng for free wasn't at all part of the agreed upon deal though.

Though perhaps for all security we could ask the Angels to switch to EcolEng if they can't select Cyberethics? That way they can still get the tech from the Gaians or from us (in exchange for other stuff of course).

Last edited by Maniac on 12-02-2005 at 21:26

	12-02-2005 21:33									#124
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I do not share the paranoia toward the Gaians, but they do act weird here. So I think we shoudl not rush giving them the tech.

Well, since they are not sure when they will need it, they will not get it. I mean, this is no way to do a trade. Once they have clearly said when they need EcolEng, we can give it to them. Perhaps even later, if getting it would prohibit them from switching to the promised research goal.

	13-02-2005 09:44									#125
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OK - that answers the last question before finalizing the turn.

I won't send Ecol Eng this turn (maybe put it in the box, on offer, as an "earnest of our intentions", but not pre-accepted - maybe with an "awaiting details" put in the text box?)

	14-02-2005 02:12									#126
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The Gaians respond:

quote: I posted your message soon after receiving it and have not gotten a response from my faction-mates. Thus, I will accurately answer you, to the best of my ability. Any trade involving trading us Ecological Engineering requires that you send it to us pre-accepted, as we will finish it on our turn. If we cannot come to an agreement regarding its trade by the end of our turn, we will decline the offer, as if it had not been made. I have not carefully followed our trade agreements and have no time to research them now. As far as attacking us, we have no illusions that you wish to make more enemies than you must, but we are naturally, and understandably, suspicious of such a heavily armed neighbor. Though you would not reasonably attack us now, we fear you may turn on us when it is convenient. Mapping our coast is an obvious prelude to such a turn of events. Accurately analyzing our coast may preclude secrecy, and if you can convince us it was innocuous, your mapping was as good as secret. As far as the timing, we have had much internal upheaval, as you have seen. Mapping our coastline, while threatening, is not our most important concern. We did notice a stack of Hive units change direction, and were happy about it, but more were behind it. Go ahead and believe what you want about our capabilities for self-defense, but we know that any help from you was accidental. Your bluster, while noted, is not important.

	14-02-2005 02:13									#127
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Did we already post the save? If so, it looks like the Gaian message came in just a bit late. I would have been able to post it in time, if I had been awake at 7 in the morning on a Sunday...

	14-02-2005 02:17									#128
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Hmmm, it looks like the arrangement is a bust. I refuse to have us take any blame for it, didn't we ask them for when they'd get EcolEng quite a while ago already? And all we received was a "we don't know", so we defaulted to not doing anything.

	14-02-2005 03:06									#129
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If Maniac is right, then they might be able to switch without getting the tech. And even if not - that is just a one-turn delay.

This answer seems pretty calm. I really think they often have to give us answers without talking to each other, due to low activity. That might be the reason why they look so jumpy at times.

	14-02-2005 03:34									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Hmmm, it looks like the arrangement is a bust. I refuse to have us take any blame for it, didn't we ask them for when they'd get EcolEng quite a while ago already? And all we received was a "we don't know", so we defaulted to not doing anything.

Looks like a SNAFU on the Gaian side. Problems with inactivity will do that I guess It's really unfortunate, but there's certainly nothing we can do about it.

	14-02-2005 06:40									#131
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Yep, no one's blaming you Kass.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 If Maniac is right, then they might be able to switch without getting the tech.

I never said this AFAIK.

quote: And even if not - that is just a one-turn delay.

If I understand their message correctly, they've researched EcolEng already as we speak (as they already have their 2160 turn), meaning leapfrogging is no longer possible.

Btw, Kassiopeia, when you say "The Gaians respond:", is that still Illuminatus, or someone else?

	14-02-2005 06:49									#132
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It's Chaos Theory.

quote: Yep, no one's blaming you Kass.

Ah, and I wasn't expecting you to. I was more talking about the Gaians blaming the ruination of the trade on us. This'll be good ammo the next time they whine about our wrongdoings.

	14-02-2005 06:57									#133
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quote: sent to Kassiopeia by Chaos Theory Any trade involving trading us Ecological Engineering requires that you send it to us pre-accepted, as we will finish it on our turn. If we cannot come to an agreement regarding its trade by the end of our turn, we will decline the offer, as if it had not been made. I have not carefully followed our trade agreements and have no time to research them now.

if they "finish it in this turn" does that mean that they will have it when they open 2160?

If not, then they can still max out their energy (to get just enough lab points to get it in 1) and we'll send it pre-accepted next turn for them to change to Int Int and return to us (if we trust them - that's why we didn't last turn - lack of trust)

If yes, then its too late

	14-02-2005 07:21									#134
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I've replied to CT asking for a clarification on that and noting that we certainly have not been at fault if they indeed now have researched EcolEng once they have opened the turn.

	14-02-2005 14:40									#135
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CT responds:

quote: I have not yet downloaded the turn, and neither has any other Gaian. I presume you keep end-turn saves, which would make it possible to add EcoEng without altering any already-played portion of the turn. Naturally, this must be done in a fashion that is transparent to the mods. I still do not know if we had reached an agreement regarding what to trade you for EcoEng. Far more serious than missing a potential tech trade is the seeming lack of activity among Gaians.

I don't like the part about doing it "transparent to the mods". One: There is no way to do it, not without me posting about it here, not at all. Two: it implies cheating.

I'd be willing to appeal to the mods based on Gaian inactivity that they could cut us some slack and let us repost a replayed end turn save that has nothing else changed except this.

Technically they ought to be doing the grovelling part, but I suppose we can leave that as it is and do it ourselves if they really are suffering from inactivity.

	14-02-2005 17:18									#136
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Sounds like their inactivity is getting extremely bad.

In that case, perhaps we should call off this deal, and stick to the IntInt trade with the Angels. Hopefully they will understand this difficult situation.

	14-02-2005 17:36									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia CT responds: I don't like the part about doing it "transparent to the mods". One: There is no way to do it, not without me posting about it here, not at all. Two: it implies cheating.

I don't think he implies cheating. I think he is, just like you, suggesting we alert the mods about this. By transparent he probably means the opposite of opaque or hidden, ie: keeping the mods well informed of what we're doing.

But anyway with this:

quote: I still do not know if we had reached an agreement regarding what to trade you for EcoEng. Far more serious than missing a potential tech trade is the seeming lack of activity among Gaians.

There's no way we should give them EcoEng pre-accepted, imo ...

	14-02-2005 18:36									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I'd be willing to appeal to the mods based on Gaian inactivity that they could cut us some slack and let us repost a replayed end turn save that has nothing else changed except this.

This won't be possible. I've already told other factions that diplomacy is not a reason for delaying the turn. Gaian activity might be, depending on the circumstances, if the turn was not already posted. However the turn is already posted, no replay will be allowed.

	14-02-2005 21:08									#139
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It's time for damage control now. Shall I inform the Gaians of your call, Drogue, or have you already done that?

quote: By transparent he probably means the opposite of opaque or hidden, ie: keeping the mods well informed of what we're doing.

Ahhh, of course.

	14-02-2005 23:00									#140
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The Gaians still haven't even downloaded the turn, and it was posted 35 hours ago That is some really serious inactivity on their part. What will happen to them? Will they be AI:d? Would a merger between Gaia and the Angels be possible?

	15-02-2005 03:48									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Gaian activity might be, depending on the circumstances, if the turn was not already posted. However the turn is already posted, no replay will be allowed.

But the turn was posted as is precisely because of Gaian inactivity

We were getting no clarification as to whether to give ecol eng pre-accepted 'cos there was no-one at the other end who knew what was happening. Even Chaos Theory admiits to not knowing the tech status in his own faction

Anyhow, 'tis water under the bridge now.

I think if the Angels and Gaians could be joined it'd make for a far more balanced game

	15-02-2005 22:15									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia It's time for damage control now. Shall I inform the Gaians of your call, Drogue, or have you already done that?

You can, if you so wish. The Gaian's never requested a change of save or a delay, or mentioned anything about it.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie But the turn was posted as is precisely because of Gaian inactivity

It would be enough if it was for their turn, and could be argued to be even on yours. But after the save has been posted, that counts as the save. It would be a replay, rather than a time extension.

	16-03-2005 01:26									#143
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*BUMP*

If we're not going to attack the Gaians next turn, how about sending that message after all that requested to move their transport?

	16-03-2005 02:16									#144
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No harm asking, I guess.

	16-03-2005 12:15									#145
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Well, there could be some harm. If they're intent on making life difficult for us, they may intentionally move it to block our path. Our request for them to move it does give them some information.

However, the way they comply to this request will tell us so much more of the gaian intent that it is definately worth the risk.

	16-03-2005 18:01									#146
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I'd wait and see if their transport is still there when we open the turn - after all, there's nothing they can do right now anyway

They might have already have moved it to allow us access - who knows?

	16-03-2005 18:35									#147
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Sounds good. Btw, do you remember where's the proposed message posted? I can't find it back.

	17-03-2005 11:28									#148
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It's still there (backed by a seaformer - what is it doing there - lowering that landbridge maybe?)

Attachment: 2163 blockade.gif
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	17-03-2005 21:51									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie It's still there (backed by a seaformer - what is it doing there - lowering that landbridge maybe?)

An extra reason to attack the Gaians next turn? To prevent they can make themselves safe from the Hive?

	18-03-2005 05:09									#150
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Oi vey! Do we really want to attack the Gaians? Are they a threat? What if they ally with the Morganites? What if they drag the Angels to a war against us, forcing us into the much dreaded 3 vs. 1 -situation?