07-02-2005 18:37									#211
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Most of us would like to not work at all and get paid handsomely for it. The question is really one of how to get as close as we can in a dynamic world economy. One thing we could do is to as much as possible reduce the barriers which make it harder for each of us to reach our golden mean whereby we are working as little as possible while making enough money to meet our needs. One huge disincentive to employer flexibility in the U.S. is the costs associated with the number of employees a firm has. It is cheaper to work your people into the ground with overtime than it is to hire enough of them to do the job without undue overtime and few days off.

Some of the impediments to a shorter workweek are structural and no amount of policy tinkering will effect them, such as training costs. If two people share a block of hours the training and hiring costs for their firm will be double what hiring one employee to fill the position will be. But the government does create or avoids assuming responsibilities which might ameliorate other disincentives. Benefits packages and particularly health insurance and tax / administration costs are the biggest culprits. We should either have national health insurance or force everyone to pay their own way and arrange for their own insurance. Not for profit insurance groups would serve us much better than what our employers offer us anyway, and they can thank us for taking this responsibility out of their hands by paying us what they would have payed for our insurance and pocketing the administration savings in order to increase their competitiveness. No disincentives to hiring should be present in the tax system either, and here the government could really make a difference easily and immediately.

	07-02-2005 18:42									#212
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Sikander,

So to help us work less we should do everything we can to help our employers. What a bunch of right wing bull.

	07-02-2005 18:51									#213
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This thing's eight pages long, and I can't be asked to read through it all; so if this has been said, so be it:

The French are more productive than Americans, as are most "lazy" Europeans with their generous vacation times. We have the strongest economy on the planet, but when you look at how much we work to produce that economy -- as opposed to how much the French or teh Dutch work to produce theirs -- they're actually more productive than we are.

The problem is, Americans, especially white-collar Americans, fetishize work. I'd happily take a 12.5% reduction in pay in exchange for a 12.5% reduction in the work week; I'd happily see my pay reduced by an additional 4% in exchange for an extra 2 weeks of vacation every year. But most employers would be appalled if I suggested that deal, and I look "lazy" -- instead of like a good, Adam-Smithian rational actor -- for even suggesting it.

	07-02-2005 18:58									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Sikander, So to help us work less we should do everything we can to help our employers. What a bunch of right wing bull.

Have you just given up reading other people's posts now and resorted to calling them names, or has it been an evolutionary process to reach this nadir point?

	07-02-2005 19:00									#215
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I didn't call him names. He obviously looks at things from an employers perspective. How is that not right wing?

	07-02-2005 19:08									#216
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Read it again, will you? Instead of knee jerking, as you are quite fond of. And 'right wing bull' definetly is throwing around names.

	07-02-2005 19:10									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly This thing's eight pages long, and I can't be asked to read through it all; so if this has been said, so be it: The French are more productive than Americans, as are most "lazy" Europeans with their generous vacation times. We have the strongest economy on the planet, but when you look at how much we work to produce that economy -- as opposed to how much the French or teh Dutch work to produce theirs -- they're actually more productive than we are. The problem is, Americans, especially white-collar Americans, fetishize work. I'd happily take a 12.5% reduction in pay in exchange for a 12.5% reduction in the work week; I'd happily see my pay reduced by an additional 4% in exchange for an extra 2 weeks of vacation every year. But most employers would be appalled if I suggested that deal, and I look "lazy" -- instead of like a good, Adam-Smithian rational actor -- for even suggesting it.

Great summary.

	07-02-2005 19:13									#218
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I read it a few times already. He's saying that we need to lower labor costs at the expense of workers and govt revenue. Sure he makes it look pretty by proposing national health care, but if you pay attention he even states that he's in favor of it because it would benefit companies, which is exactly correct.

	07-02-2005 19:24									#219
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quote: He's saying that we need to lower labor costs at the expense of workers and govt revenue.

Read it again.

	07-02-2005 19:25									#220
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I love how the informative posts get lost in a sea of chaff.

In my job, my typical day was leaving home around 8am in the office from 9am to 7pm (eating lunch in the office), getting back home at 8pm. There were also weekend workdays sometimes, thought thankfully it was normally just an afternoon here or there.

That generally comes out to a 50 hour workweek- but as many of you may note from my postings, it was not a very productive 50 hours (I did not particulalrly like the job.) Of course, I only ever got paid for 35 hours a week, because by law this is what municipal employees should work, and then anything above that is overtime, but I never got a dime of overtime, ever. So I guess I was wasting the extra 15 hours on Poly given that I was not actually getting paid for them....

	07-02-2005 19:29									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: He's saying that we need to lower labor costs at the expense of workers and govt revenue. Read it again.

You read it again, and again, and again.

	07-02-2005 19:30									#222
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Hammers have a tendency to see everything else as a nail.

	07-02-2005 19:37									#223
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Hammers have a tendency to see everything else as a nail.

I think that's what I said.

	07-02-2005 19:52									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly The problem is, Americans, especially white-collar Americans, fetishize work. I'd happily take a 12.5% reduction in pay in exchange for a 12.5% reduction in the work week; I'd happily see my pay reduced by an additional 4% in exchange for an extra 2 weeks of vacation every year. But most employers would be appalled if I suggested that deal, and I look "lazy" -- instead of like a good, Adam-Smithian rational actor -- for even suggesting it.

When the French first switched to a 35 hour work week, I said it was a good idea. I also said I would gladly give up 12.5% pay for a 12.5% work reduction. In fact, I said we should just move to a 32 hour work week and that I would gladly give up 20% pay to get it. Everyone else said I was nuts and that there was no way they would take the pay cuts for lower hours. They just wanted the lower hours and no pay cuts. It was just another proof of the correctness of that bread and circuses line.

	07-02-2005 19:59									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think that's what I said.

He was talking about you, oh ignorant one .

	07-02-2005 20:40									#226
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quote: I fail to see how you arrive at the conclusion that French productivity growth will slow, do you have any rationale or data to back up your supposition? For your information French hourly productivity went from 112% of the US level in 1990 to 114% in 1996 and 120% in 2002.

The rationale for that opinion is that there are few barriers to the spread and assumption of superior technologies and methods across borders. We're talking time horizons of several decades.

	07-02-2005 20:45									#227
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quote: The French are more productive than Americans, as are most "lazy" Europeans with their generous vacation times.

Most lazy Europeans are less productive than Americans on an hourly basis. See el freako's list on page 6 (with a 30 post/page view). The big lazy countries above the US in these terms are France and Germany.

	07-02-2005 20:49									#228
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If we have a high standard of living, and work less hours so enjoy our lives more, who cares about who's more productive per hour?

Quality of life != Quantity of material posessions.

	07-02-2005 20:51									#229
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How many VCR's does one really need? ( yes Ming, we know you have six. )

	07-02-2005 20:55									#230
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You live in Germany, right Alva?

	07-02-2005 20:57									#231
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A bit to left but close yeah. ( Belgium )

	07-02-2005 21:00									#232
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If we have a high standard of living, and work less hours so enjoy our lives more, who cares about who's more productive per hour? Quality of life != Quantity of material posessions.

Hey, you are the one who wants me to get a mini beer fridge .

	07-02-2005 21:04									#233
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That's not a luxury, that's a necessity.

	07-02-2005 21:20									#234
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Has there been a drumbeat from the Belgian business community about Belgium losing global competitiveness?

	07-02-2005 21:24									#235
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quote: Originally posted by DanS However, for the last couple of decades, the decrease has taken a pause in the US

That's a bit of an understatement. It's actually gone into reverse, and the 40-hour week is no longer the norm. IIRC, the average is now 45 hours.

	07-02-2005 21:33									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I have an OVERWHELMING hatred of France and its people

Why are you this stupid?

	07-02-2005 21:34									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But 50 hours a week is close to half your time. But not there. Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and thermonuclear warfare.

Add in your commute time and time preparing for work, and you're over the top.

	07-02-2005 21:39									#238
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Most lazy Europeans are less productive than Americans on an hourly basis.

As this has been true for over a century I fail to see how you can make judgements on what is going to happen based on a snapshot of what the situation is now.

The gap between europe and america in hourly productivity has been falling since the second world war (and may have started to fall before but the depression and WW2 make trends hard to follow in that period)

quote: Originally posted by DanS See el freako's list on page 6 (with a 30 post/page view). The big lazy countries above the US in these terms are France and Germany.

How 'dynamic' and 'open to change' a country is seems to make little difference to the rate of catch-up with america in productivity, for example in 1990 Germany's GDP per hour was 84% of the US level and Britian's was 77% - both have since seen significant increases(to 104% and 90%), however during that time Britian was percieved to be far more open than Germany.

Now this doesn't seem to fit with orthodox theories does it? but a good scientific adage is that when the data disagrees with the theory it is usually the theory that is incorrect - unfortunately good science is a rarity in economics (not surprising as it is such a politically-charged subject)

It is possible that the current orthodoxy is as wrong about how open an economy needs to be to benefit from high productivity growth as the keynesians were about the ability to 'fine-tune' an economy.

	07-02-2005 21:41									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander It is cheaper to work your people into the ground with overtime than it is to hire enough of them to do the job without undue overtime and few days off.

I am not sure that is the case. The productivity of a worker does not increase linearly with time at work. The unit productivity stays fairly constant for awhile, IIRC at around 6 - 7 hours a day, then drops off. That means paying overtime to get extra work done isn't a good idea, you are better off getting some part-time help.

	07-02-2005 21:50									#240
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quote: The gap between europe and america in hourly productivity has been falling since the second world war (and may have started to fall before but the depression and WW2 make trends hard to follow in that period)

And I suggest that this likely will occur the other way around too. I'm not saying that France can't grow its productivity to 130% of the US or whatever, but that I consider it more likely that France will revert to the mean among economically developed countries. That likelihood in itself should inform the French about the context of the move to a 35 hour work week.

quote: It is possible that the current orthodoxy is as wrong about how open an economy needs to be to benefit from high productivity growth as the keynesians were about the ability to 'fine-tune' an economy.

It's possible. It's also possible that the full impact of those changes is delayed. I should be clear that even if the US is on the whole open to change, this change impacts only a small portion of the economy acutely.