06-02-2005 21:23									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I have an OVERWHELMING hatred of France and its people but this almost makes me want to move to France.... how is job stability there :?

	06-02-2005 21:25									#182
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I'm not the one who's having trouble subtracting 35 from 50.

What's the difference between the two? And no, the answer isn't "fifteen hours"

	06-02-2005 21:32									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What's the difference between the two? And no, the answer isn't "fifteen hours"

I'm sorry, but it is. 15 hours a week is the difference between a 35 hour week and a 50 hour week.

A "debilitating effect" of both, is that you are obliged to devote a certain amount of time to a job every week. The difference between a 35 hour week and 50 hour week is that a 50 hour week requires 15 more hours every week than the 35 hour one, and so, it has a greater "debilitating effect" in terms of time consumption than a 35 hour week would have.

	06-02-2005 22:00									#184
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You haven't shown that 15 hours is necessarily significant. You haven't stated anything but "X hours is bad because it's X hours".

	06-02-2005 22:02									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You haven't shown that 15 hours is necessarily significant. You haven't stated anything but "X hours is bad because it's X hours".

Anybody with a real job doesn't need for somebody to prove the difference between a 35 hour week and a 50 hour week. While some lazy bastards probably whine about a 35 hour week, a 50 hour week does take it's a toll on a person. Too many of those in a row, and you start becoming a zombie

	06-02-2005 22:05									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You haven't shown that 15 hours is necessarily significant. You haven't stated anything but "X hours is bad because it's X hours".

Then go 15hrs/week more to college

	06-02-2005 22:08									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You haven't shown that 15 hours is necessarily significant.

Yes I have, you just choose not to acknowledge it.

Or maybe you're still having trouble with the math. How many times do I need to go over simple subtraction and addition before you get it? What is the signifigance of 15 in 35+15=50? 15 added to 35 results in a larger sum - that is, more time spent working and less time to yourself.

	06-02-2005 22:51									#188
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50 hours of work a week won't make you a zombie in most jobs.

	06-02-2005 22:54									#189
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yes I have, you just choose not to acknowledge it. Or maybe you're still having trouble with the math. How many times do I need to go over simple subtraction and addition before you get it? What is the signifigance of 15 in 35+15=50? 15 added to 35 results in a larger sum - that is, more time spent working and less time to yourself.

Same for 35 + 1. But no one is arguing that OMG 36 HOUR WORKWEEK IS SATAN!!!!!1111

	06-02-2005 23:00									#190
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I'm just glad he stopped arguing with me.

	06-02-2005 23:01									#191
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quote: In 1963 there were 727 hours worked per head of population in the US compared to 861 in the EU15, in 1983 789 hours per head were worked in both and by 2003 the US had reached 860 and the EU 754 - so over the forty-year period the US and EU have changed places. Germany saw the largest fall in hours worked per head over the period at 36%. France has the lowest level of hours worked per head, at 564 this is only two-thirds of the US level Almost all countries saw faster growth in hours worked per head during 1983-03 than during 1963-83 (the exceptions being Canada, Finland and Japan which saw slower growth and Germany and the United States which saw no change), the biggest turnaround was Spain which saw a 26% fall in 1963-83 turned into a 31% rise in 1983-03.

Excellent. Now my questioning of the wisdom of France going to a 35 hour work week has some backing. It's not that it's a bad thing to do in principle, but in the context of extra vacation, longer lives, and increased global competition, it's skating near the edge.

I question whether France will be able to continue to increase its productivity beyond what others are experiencing. If its productivity growth moderates -- as seems likely -- France will have to settle for standards of living that are improving much slower than they are in the US, for instance. While this is the French people's choice, I hope they are well informed about the consequences of choosing less work in their particular circumstance.

	06-02-2005 23:04									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Same for 35 + 1. But no one is arguing that OMG 36 HOUR WORKWEEK IS SATAN!!!!!1111

Well, this is the first time a 36 hour work week has been mentioned in the thread. A 35 hour work week is preferable to 36.... but there's a much more signifigant difference between 35 and 50, than there is between 35 and 36.


Regardless, i was just pointing out the obvious negative effect to a 50 hour work week - that you have to spend 50 hours working. I wasn't comparing it to a 35 hour week, but obviously the greater the number is, the greater the effect is.

	06-02-2005 23:06									#193
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quote: Originally posted by DanS 50 hours of work a week won't make you a zombie in most jobs.

Depends on what you are doing. 10 hours of actual time per day for 5 days (and I'm not counting lunch) drags on the system. If you take an hour for lunch, we are talking about starting your work day at 8am, and not finishing until 7pm. That doesn't leave very much time for communting back and forth to work, getting ready for work, eating, sleeping, and just having some time to yourself. I do 50+ hours weeks when I have to, and they get to be a drag... but it's not something that is normal... and I don't expect my staff to do it on a regular basis either.

	06-02-2005 23:10									#194
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I question whether France will be able to continue to increase its productivity beyond what others are experiencing. If its productivity growth moderates -- as seems likely -- France will have to settle for standards of living that are improving much slower than they are in the US, for instance. While this is the French people's choice, I hope they are well informed about the consequences of choosing less work in their particular circumstance.

Typical conservative. "People should be happy to be slaves! How dare the proles try and enjoy their lives other than by consuming!"

	06-02-2005 23:12									#195
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I also take a look at Germany's situation. It has worse demographics than does France, but almost works as few of hours as France. This situation seems ripe for correction.

	06-02-2005 23:15									#196
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We should be trying to emulate them, not forcing them to live as badly was we do.

	06-02-2005 23:21									#197
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quote: Typical conservative. "People should be happy to be slaves! How dare the proles try and enjoy their lives other than by consuming!"

Several of the few French people who I know personally are very unsatisfied with the results of the tradeoff in the less work approach. I would be happy to have those sort of people working in the US and contributing to our national wealth rather than France's, so it doesn't matter to me one whit that the French choose to be lazy.

Also, I wonder whether the French people are really clued in to the results of this tradeoff. At a minimum, they will be fighting over an economic pie that isn't growing very fast. Social cohesion could take a vacation for a while...

	06-02-2005 23:21									#198
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The idea is to maintain the same pay for workers, but decrease the work week. That would maintain the tax base. And increasing labor costs are incentives to increase productivity.

	07-02-2005 00:59									#199
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I've got three 70-hour weeks coming up, of which 45 hours will be stand-up training delivery. It sucks monstrously.

	07-02-2005 15:10									#200
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quote: Originally posted by DanS France will have to settle for standards of living that are improving much slower than they are in the US, for instance.

This "standards of living" is so passe. Now people measure quality of living instead.

	07-02-2005 15:41									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Come on Ozzy. School is not a real job. College is not even a job. Job = stress and responsibility.

I think I need to introduce you to the Indian school system . . . . . . . .

	07-02-2005 15:43									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp That's not 35 hours working, is it? Factor in time spent staring thunderstruck at the budding bodies of your female colleagues, and helpless insecurity about whether your genitals are ever going to come up to scratch, and you're looking at about 6 hours of actual work.

I would write a rebuttal to your later post directed at me, but I find your posts funny enough that I will let them stand.

	07-02-2005 16:37									#203
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ageist. See avatar.

I'm hardly old man myself at 27. But I do have experience of the real world, unlike some who are definitely still under the wing of daddy. He is completely inexperienced to discuss the situation...

	07-02-2005 16:40									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ming College is difficult, and can be very stressing. However, once upon a time, my father gave me a piece of advice... "Enjoy college while you are there... because once you graduate, you have to join the real world" Unless you are doing brain dead work or manual labor, a job is harder and far more demanding and stressful than going to school.

I agree but it is funny. I never found myself particularly cut out for academia, so despite the fact I do a lot less than I do now I found it a much greater chore than I do now, and as that means I can get stuck into my job more and thus achieve things, I enjoy my job more, so despite being under more pressure, I am a lot less stressed than I was as a student/PhD Go figure...

	07-02-2005 18:12									#205
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm I think I need to introduce you to the Indian school system . . . . . . . .

Don't you have to work for your right to go to school? We need to send Kuci over there to get a better understanding of the world, although I see it hasn't helped you any.

	07-02-2005 18:17									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Here's how this thread has gone down: People that have jobs = look at the 35 hour law favorably Kids that are still in school and have never worked = Call the French lazy

So wrong.

	07-02-2005 18:18									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Having luxuries is one thing, but being obsessed with luxuries in another, and that is what conspicuous consumption is.

Actually conspicuous consumption is an activity for the status obsessed. The materialism is a means to an end in this instance.

	07-02-2005 18:19									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie shelter and food. Let's go for umbrella drinks then - They provide both...

	07-02-2005 18:20									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp That's not 35 hours working, is it? Factor in time spent staring thunderstruck at the budding bodies of your female colleagues, and helpless insecurity about whether your genitals are ever going to come up to scratch, and you're looking at about 6 hours of actual work.

For me its about 20 hours a week surfing the net and 20 working mostly alone with my music blaring through the empty office.

	07-02-2005 18:31									#210
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I question whether France will be able to continue to increase its productivity beyond what others are experiencing. If its productivity growth moderates -- as seems likely -- France will have to settle for standards of living that are improving much slower than they are in the US, for instance.

I fail to see how you arrive at the conclusion that French productivity growth will slow, do you have any rationale or data to back up your supposition?

For your information French hourly productivity went from 112% of the US level in 1990 to 114% in 1996 and 120% in 2002.