07-02-2005 21:59									#241
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Has there been a drumbeat from the Belgian business community about Belgium losing global competitiveness?

There has been a very silent request to get back to an 40h/week system but this was more scare-mongering than anything else. Pre-empting salary increase demands etc.
People don't wan to work "that much" anymore and are happy to earn a little less in return.

The biggest problem here is that hiring - and employing someone in general - is way to expensive (taxes).
The gouverment is working on that but it is a slow process.
Don't forget that we have no have no natural resources at all, exceptsome redundant coal. In Civ3 terms, we're ***** big time.

That is unless of-course, being Europe's capital can be seen as a resource.

Also note that is quite a big difference between the north and south...

You haven't been looking some numbers, have you?
------

What nobody has mentioned so far in this thread is that for a majority of people, say factory workers for example, it all doesn't matter all that much. Earning 10% more is peanuts and at the end of the month and often it's a zero operation.
If you work more, your costs of living will increase as well. Are you going to cook when you get home at 8.00 or 9.00 am or are you getting some - more expensive - take out etc..

	07-02-2005 22:04									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He was talking about you, oh ignorant one .

Well duh. And I was talking about you.

This is the story of right wing ideology. Some selfish people see problems that humanity has. They also see that people have sympathy for their fellow humans. The selfish people say to themselves, "This is an opportunity for us." They create an ideology that says that creating benefits for themselves benefits the world. That is how right wing ideologies are created.

The definition of a moderate is someone who is blind to this.

	07-02-2005 22:05									#243
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quote: The biggest problem here is that hiring - and employing someone in general - is way to expensive (taxes).

Has it occurred to you that the reason why the taxes are so high is that the government has to squeeze sufficient money out of a low number of work hours? The society's needs don't change, even if the number of work hours does.

quote: If you work more, your costs of living will increase as well. Are you going to cook when you get home at 8.00 or 9.00 am or are you getting some - more expensive - take out etc..

This is true. Everybody spends most of what they make, whatever they make. I would argue that the takeout is a good trade-off that maximizes the skills of everybody involved, however.

	07-02-2005 22:16									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Hey, you are the one who wants me to get a mini beer fridge .

I don't have one of those myself.

	07-02-2005 22:27									#245
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Has it occurred to you that the reason why the taxes are so high is that the government has to squeeze sufficient money out of a low number of work hours? The society's needs don't change, even if the number of work hours does.

Not really, the main reason why taxes are that high, is because we're paying off a huge debt.
They have been lowering taxes for quite some time but like I said...slowly.

Note: that we are one of few Euro countries without a budget deficit in the last 10? years.

PS: I tried looking for some concrete and correct info but to be honest, I couldn't find anything decent.
Maybe Colon could do a far better job than me on this.

	07-02-2005 23:06									#246
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Maybe taxes are so high because labor compensation is so low.

	07-02-2005 23:44									#247
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I would just like to point out that studies have shown, since the intorduction of the 35 hours workweek, that workers have become more efficient per hour, and the average hour of work by a Frenchman is much more than the same hour worked by an American. That's because, thanks to our reasonable schedules, we spend our time at the working doing some actual work. There is far less time spent at the workplace for entertainment (like posting on 'Poly). Such is what we do in our free time.

The 35 hours workweek had no negative impact on our growth, and had a slight but positive impact on our unemployment. The real problem of the French society and economy is unemployment, but repelling the 35 hours workweek won't help it any. It will only worsen our quality of life with extremely little in return. According to polls, about only 20% of the population wishes to work more, which means that repelling the 35 hours workweek will benefit a few and hurt most

	07-02-2005 23:46									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well duh. And I was talking about you. This is the story of right wing ideology. Some selfish people see problems that humanity has. They also see that people have sympathy for their fellow humans. The selfish people say to themselves, "This is an opportunity for us." They create an ideology that says that creating benefits for themselves benefits the world. That is how right wing ideologies are created. The definition of a moderate is someone who is blind to this.

Nah, the Capitalists are just victims of the naturalistic fallacy, that is that if greed is part of human nature than greed must be good. Just because something is part of human nature, doesn't mean it is good, otherwise xenophobia would be a good thing.

	07-02-2005 23:58									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Odin the Capitalists are just victims of the naturalistic fallacy

They aren't victims.

	08-02-2005 00:01									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I would just like to point out that studies have shown, since the intorduction of the 35 hours workweek, that workers have become more efficient per hour, and the average hour of work by a Frenchman is much more than the same hour worked by an American. That's because, thanks to our reasonable schedules, we spend our time at the working doing some actual work. There is far less time spent at the workplace for entertainment (like posting on 'Poly). Such is what we do in our free time. The 35 hours workweek had no negative impact on our growth, and had a slight but positive impact on our unemployment. The real problem of the French society and economy is unemployment, but repelling the 35 hours workweek won't help it any. It will only worsen our quality of life with extremely little in return. According to polls, about only 20% of the population wishes to work more, which means that repelling the 35 hours workweek will benefit a few and hurt most

Another factor may be that more people work in more productive jobs. Empolyers don't just cut back on operations because the employees that they have work less hours. Maybe they hire more. Efficiency is pretty close to productivity.

	08-02-2005 08:39									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I would just like to point out that studies have shown, since the intorduction of the 35 hours workweek, that workers have become more efficient per hour, and the average hour of work by a Frenchman is much more than the same hour worked by an American. That's because, thanks to our reasonable schedules, we spend our time at the working doing some actual work. There is far less time spent at the workplace for entertainment (like posting on 'Poly). Such is what we do in our free time. The 35 hours workweek had no negative impact on our growth, and had a slight but positive impact on our unemployment. The real problem of the French society and economy is unemployment, but repelling the 35 hours workweek won't help it any. It will only worsen our quality of life with extremely little in return. According to polls, about only 20% of the population wishes to work more, which means that repelling the 35 hours workweek will benefit a few and hurt most

	08-02-2005 09:17									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There is far less time spent at the workplace for entertainment (like posting on 'Poly). Such is what we do in our free time.

So Americans get paid to post on 'Poly, but the French have to do it in their free time?

You sure you're getting the good end of that deal?

	08-02-2005 09:58									#253
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye So Americans get paid to post on 'Poly, but the French have to do it in their free time? You sure you're getting the good end of that deal?

Of course, the American's are restricted in the leisure activities they can do whilst 'working' whilst the French, with their shorter hours have more freedom to choose and therefore more liberty than the americans.

	08-02-2005 11:10									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The 35 hours workweek had no negative impact on our growth, and had a slight but positive impact on our unemployment.

I call BS. The whole idea the Socialist government used to sell the idea (That it would lead to higher employment) is based on a fallacy.

	08-02-2005 11:42									#255
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I call BS on your BS.


What measure of improved unemployment would satisfy you anyway? It did move in the right direction.


Besides, it's their country, they like the law, what the hell do you care anyway.

	08-02-2005 11:45									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Besides, it's their country, they like the law, what the hell do you care anyway.

That will make people campaigning for longer work weeks look stupid.

	08-02-2005 11:55									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison "Manage"?. With modern methods and automation, people shouldn't just have to manage, people should have a decent work life balance where they don't feel like they are constantly chained to the job. Try it when you've got a family to look after, you need all the time you've got, plus the money.

Let me know when you invest half a million in a bot to go to work for you.

	08-02-2005 15:34									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Sikander, So to help us work less we should do everything we can to help our employers. What a bunch of right wing bull.

No wonder you're wrong about almost everything, your reading comprehension is abysmal.

	08-02-2005 15:40									#259
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@Kidicious -

In India ( as I have explained many times before ) , the school system is one in which there is a central board of secondary education ( the CBSE ) , which does not own schools , but with which schools are affiliated . The school could be private , or state(centrally)-run . The CBSE is the most common ( and the most widely accepted ) affiliation in India .

As I said , thanks to the huge incompetence and corruption rampant in any government venture , most good schools here are private ( simply because they have to provide good education to survive as a school ) . The CBSE has its own norms , which all schools ( private and public ) must meet to remain affiliated to them .

The CBSE conducts two tests , both centalised . The only exception is the national capital region , where they have a different paper . The exams are - the 10th board , and the 12th board . This is because , till tenth , you have all subjects ( Maths , Science , Social Science , Hindi , and English ) . After tenth ( from 11th ) , you are asked to choose your subjects - the sciences , commerce , or the humanities . the 12th board tests how much you get in your chosen subjects .

The workweek is , on an average , 48 to 50 hours . And the work is not easy . Just as an example , the textbook I use for physics in the 11th grade is "University Physics" ( Young and Freedman ) . And there is a lot of stuff in the course which I do not find in the book ( mostly advanced application ) .

Examinations are tough . The average percentage for physics in our class was less than 45 % . Out of a class of twenty-five , I was one of the lucky few to manage a 70 % ( the highest was 79 % , IIRC ) .

You don't have to work ( as in a job ) , but if you don't work ( as in schoolwork and study ) , then you are in a bd position . A very bad position .

	08-02-2005 15:43									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am not sure that is the case. The productivity of a worker does not increase linearly with time at work. The unit productivity stays fairly constant for awhile, IIRC at around 6 - 7 hours a day, then drops off. That means paying overtime to get extra work done isn't a good idea, you are better off getting some part-time help.

I'll go with the evidence that it is a much more common practice in the U.S. for people to work overtime than it is for an employer to have some slack. Sure performance does drop off, but not enough to offset the costs of hiring additional employees, which was the point of my post.

	08-02-2005 17:45									#261
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Has it occurred to you that the reason why the taxes are so high is that the government has to squeeze sufficient money out of a low number of work hours? The society's needs don't change, even if the number of work hours does.

Not really

firstly we do have a very nicely build social security network taking alot of money. changes are on the way to make it a little bit more managable, but the system works very well in the end. (this includes both unemployment and health care)
secondly, a large part of our taxes go to our educational system which is lightyears ahead of yours. (and lets keep it that way)
thirdly, we have to carry the burden of a large hystorical debt.

all in all, our country doesn't do a bad job right now.

as for the 35 hour week i have my doubts about the feasibilty. the problem is i have a 38 hours week and work about 45 hours just to get the job done. ok, they are very happy with me and my work, but it shows the system doesn't work that well

and now i am on a holiday so i am not wasting valuable working time posting on this site...

	08-02-2005 18:07									#262
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis as for the 35 hour week i have my doubts about the feasibilty. the problem is i have a 38 hours week and work about 45 hours just to get the job done.

That's the way it's going to be everywhere. At least with some jobs. I think that's more true with state jobs where there have been cutbacks.

	08-02-2005 18:10									#263
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It's pretty crap. Quite often I need an hour extra or so to finish what I am doing but I do get paid for it, as should be anyone's entitlement...

	08-02-2005 18:14									#264
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm You don't have to work ( as in a job ) , but if you don't work ( as in schoolwork and study ) , then you are in a bd position . A very bad position .

And that's the only way to do it. If you don't study, and you mess around in class you should be kicked out of school. That's the problem here. There are a bunch of kids in our schools who think it's Disneyland.

	08-02-2005 18:16									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I call BS on your BS.

pwned.

Ted Striker

	08-02-2005 20:50									#266
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quote: secondly, a large part of our taxes go to our educational system which is lightyears ahead of yours. (and lets keep it that way)

Belgium does pretty good in regard to education outcomes. The US does better than Belgium in some areas and worse in others. But suffice it to say that this is a relatively modest portion of both Belgium's and the US' public spending. With regard to this discussion, the funding needs are increasing for education. A comparatively small and static (perhaps decreasing) total number of hours worked have to cover those costs.

	08-02-2005 20:53									#267
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Question: Wouldn't French productivity growth have something to do with the 35 hour work week and the high cost of labor. It's a built in incentive to squeeze all the productivity out of each worker since costs are so high and low productivity jobs simply move over seas. If we eliminate all the low productivity jobs it looks good on paper but it also means they've lost a great many job fields.

	08-02-2005 22:00									#268
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quote: If we have a high standard of living, and work less hours so enjoy our lives more, who cares about who's more productive per hour? Quality of life != Quantity of material posessions.

Yes, I agree, BUT

That's not the issue. The issue, the reason why the frogs are protesting now is a proposal to ALLOW private invididuals to work more than the goverment wants them IF THEY WANT TO.

I mean, am I missing something here? How can anyone who wants to support workers' rights oppose this proposal?

DanS: Federal EU bureucracy is located in Luxembourg and southern Belgium. Don't underestimate the bureucrat's impact on the economy, they get massive amounts of federal money each year which they'll spend on the local economies.

	08-02-2005 22:08									#269
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I call BS. The whole idea the Socialist government used to sell the idea (That it would lead to higher employment) is based on a fallacy.

The idea that it would significantly increase employment is indeed a fallacy. Employment rose under the Socialists thanks to economic growth and thanks to many extra State-sponsored jobs. However, the impact of the 35 hours as such was not negative; on the contrary, its slight impact was positive.

And it was a great boon for our quality of life.

	08-02-2005 22:10									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Question: Wouldn't French productivity growth have something to do with the 35 hour work week and the high cost of labor. It's a built in incentive to squeeze all the productivity out of each worker since costs are so high and low productivity jobs simply move over seas. If we eliminate all the low productivity jobs it looks good on paper but it also means they've lost a great many job fields.

If this was the case you would expect a very poor performance in the growth of French total hours worked, however the opposite has been true.
During 1973-83 total hours worked in France grew 2.4% a year slower than in the US, in 1983-93 the gap narrowed slightly to 2.0% but in 1993-03 it halved to 1.0% (not much more than the difference in population growth)
Indeed over the EU15 as a whole the gap in the growth of hours worked relative to the US has narrowed significantly in the last decade, in 1973-83 and 1983-93 the EU15's total hours rose 1.9% a year less than the US's but during 1993-03 the gap fell to only 0.6% a year (less than the difference in population growth)

Now i'm not saying that the 35 hour week caused this narrowing of the gap, indeed it is possible that other labour market reforms have masked a detrimental effect produced by the 35 hour week - however you have to agree that Europe's labour market has improved significantly in the 1990's and in many respects is now close to the US's; in terms of employment/working age population the EU is slightly below the US (66.1% vs 66.9%), in terms of workforce/working age population it is actually above (71.8% vs 70.8%).
Five years ago the US was significantly ahead on both measures.