25-02-2005 00:08									#121
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I suppose that since I've got to assassin as a ranger, and not a rogue, then never getting a sneak attack might have a large part to play in that, so maybe I ought to go invisible to see if it works. But with only 2 levels as assassin, I ain't going to kill anything that's half-decent. I'll try the fight again when I next play, but if it doesn't work then I'll just chicken out and go into the hole without bothering with the fight.

Pop an invis potion and see. I don't recall that fight being that mean though. Did you try focusing on her first?

	25-02-2005 01:01									#122
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yeah, if you think that's tough, wait till the one on the other side of those doors.

but like I said, you can get allies.

for the other fight, if you can't get them by taking down the formian leader first, then just run and try to draw a couple out. That tactic works so often in games. Seperate the group into smaller groups and take them out that way.

	25-02-2005 10:16									#123
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I remember that my sorc had trouble with it. But I didn't even notice it with my monk.

	25-02-2005 17:07									#124
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I only had one go at the fight, and hadn't done any kind of preparation beforehand. As I said, I helped them kill the slaads, which is not a main part of my tactics when I revisit the ruck.
Stop laughing at my useless character you buggers!
I killed Kel-garas the first time round without being hit once myself (although admittedly the speed potion I necked helped a lot ).

	26-02-2005 01:01									#125
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Kel Garas wasn't too bad. How did you fare against the blackguard and the skeleton warriors?

if you can do that fight, you should have no trouble with the rest of the game. There are a couple tricky areas in chapt2 iirc. You just have to figure out how to get past the traps and such.

	27-02-2005 16:57									#126
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My girlfriend and I got through to the last battle with

spoiler(highlight to read): Mephistopheles

yesterday. He tried to turn my companions. Don't worry I said confidently, Valen is in love with you, and Nathyrra has said how close a friend she considers you. We also have quite high persuade (maximum cross class), so we'll be fine.

Then that silly cow Nathyrra betrays us! I didn't take their

spoiler(highlight to read): true names

so I had to mash her first. It wasn't difficult, but I felt it was a somewhat silly ending given our long battle against evil together and close friendship.

	27-02-2005 18:35									#127
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Hahaha, you trusted a Drow.

-Jam

	28-02-2005 17:10									#128
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I allied with the queen of the ants, and am ready for the scrap upstairs. I didn't fight them properly, but I assume that the fight with the grey slaad and his red friends isn't the really tough one behind those doors. Should I be keeping my crystal for the big fight later? (If there is one) I smashed it to see what happened and got a single ant myrmidon or whatever they're called.

And by the way Jam and Spike. We all know one another's

spoiler(highlight to read): See Spike's spoiler

, so I don't expect betrayal, but then Galactic Overlord is a totally different kettle of ducks and the normal rules do not apply.

	28-02-2005 22:29									#129
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yes the grey slaad is the tough one. It's behind those doors (there should be a cut-scene). I'm not sure if the crystal will work anyplace else. I suppose it would though (I doubt it has any special scripts on it).

	28-02-2005 22:40									#130
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york I allied with the queen of the ants, and am ready for the scrap upstairs. I didn't fight them properly, but I assume that the fight with the grey slaad and his red friends isn't the really tough one behind those doors. Should I be keeping my crystal for the big fight later? (If there is one) I smashed it to see what happened and got a single ant myrmidon or whatever they're called. And by the way Jam and Spike. We all know one another's spoiler(highlight to read): See Spike's spoiler , so I don't expect betrayal, but then Galactic Overlord is a totally different kettle of ducks and the normal rules do not apply.

Alliance discussion NOW. PM me.

	28-02-2005 22:42									#131
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The first fight can be tough if you have poor will saves. The second will be even trickier, especially with your char ( ), so I'd use the ant warrior then. Try and get the bad guys to hit her.

	01-03-2005 01:48									#132
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Heh. Our three person party finished up SOU today.

spoiler(highlight to read): The three Winds were pretty hard, especially Wise Wind which kept killing us all the time. However, when we got to the actual final battle of the module, the Heurodion or whomever was felled by us in a few minutes! It was one of the easiest final battles I've ever fought. Our characters were at about level 11, a cleric, a barbarian and a sorcerer... did we overdo it?

	01-03-2005 02:01									#133
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I'm not sure how balanced SOU for multiplayer. The final battle you normally do alone (without a henchman even)

	01-03-2005 03:05									#134
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That might explain it. We waltzed in,

spoiler(highlight to read): destroyed the mythallar devices, and after a few empowered Searing Lights and Missile Storms from the spellcasters it was already over.

	01-03-2005 03:22									#135
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You usually get a henchman for that fight. It isn't solo unless you make it that way.

I would think though that the whole of SoU would be quite easy with 3.

	01-03-2005 03:57									#136
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I agree that it mostly was (we played on the maximum difficulty setting and it was still a breeze pretty much), but the Winds were oddly challenging. Well, save for the Dead one, what with having a cleric onboard.

	01-03-2005 03:58									#137
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I never had a henchman for that fight. Even though mine survived up until that point.

	01-03-2005 04:01									#138
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Odd, I had a henchman both times.

	01-03-2005 05:00									#139
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Ive gotten back into the joy of slaying endless droves of zombies, and I have a question.


What is the advantage of two-handed weapons? Do you recieve extra attacks per round as you do with double-wielding?

	01-03-2005 08:36									#140
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No, but you get 1.5x your STR bonus, and the weapons tend to have better base damage too.

i.e

STR 18 gives +4 (normal) to the right hand and +2 (off hand is limited to +2) to the left hand when dual wielding.

STR 18 gives +6 (+4 x 1.5)to the twohanded weapon when twohandedweaponing.

Also compare a Longsword d8 damage (average 4.5) with a Greatsword 2d6 damage (average 7)

If you really want to deal the death, twohanded is the way to go. BUT. You will have 2 less attacks (maximum) per round ot no sheild.

Options
a.) Upto 5 average attacks +7 or more to your AC (sword and shield)
b.) Upto 5 average attacks and 2 below-average attacks (dual wield with a strength based character)
c.) Upto 7 good attacks (dual wield with a DEX based character)
d.) Upto 5 excellent attacks (twohanded weapon)

Of course to get the maximum attacks you need at least +16 Base Attack Bonus and you need to be Hasted.

-Jam

	01-03-2005 10:37									#141
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and 2 handed weapons just look cool. A RP thing.

when I play a barbarian, I wouldn't feel right now using a 2 handed weapon. Imagine a barbarian weilding a dagger. .

Greatswords seem to be the best, but sometimes I use halbards because they look better. I keep meaning to use a scythe. Once of these days I will. That's the coolest look.

	01-03-2005 11:11									#142
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Heck, not only do Scythes look cool, but they're actually a really good weapon. Sure, the critical chance is "only" on a 20, but as a Weapon Master, that gets expanded to 17-20... and the damage to x5.

Actually, just doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations comparing the scythe, greatsword, and greataxe... (assuming STR 26, Devastating Critical, weapon master, Epic Weapon spec, etc. in that weapon. Also assuming that the weapons are completely non-magical, not keen, and that no buffing magics are active on the wielder or weapon, for the sake of simplicity.)

Scythe: 2d4+18 (20-26) damage on regular hit (15/20). On critical (4/20), that increases to 10d4+4d6+90 (104-154) damage. Expected damage, then would be (0)(1/20)+(23)(3/4)+(129)(1/5)=43.05 damage.

Greatsword: 2d6+18 (20-30) damage on regular hit (13/20), 8d6+54 (62-102) on critical (6/20). Expected damage: (25)(13/20)+(82)(6/20)=40.85.

Greataxe: 1d12+18 (19-30) damage on regular hit (15/20). 4d12+3d6+72 (79-138) on crit (4/20). Expected damage: (24.5)(3/4)+(108.5)(1/5)=40.075.

Of course, if the weapon is keen or has an attack or damage bonus, then that makes things even more complex.

From a combat perspective, I can't see why one would take a halberd over a great-axe. They have the same critical threat and damage, yes, but the greataxe has a base damage of 1d12, while the halberd does 1d10.

Doing the same thing, only for one-handed weapons... picking the Bastard Sword/Katana (same attributes), Long Sword, Battleaxe, and Scimitar/Rapier (same, except for some reason Rapiers get the benefits of Weapon Finesse when wielded in the right hand while scimitars don't).

Bastard Sword: 1d10+14 (15-24) on regular hit (13/20), 3d10+2d6+42 (47-84) on critical (6/20). Expected damage: (19.5)(13/20)+(65.5)(6/20)=32.325 damage.

Long Sword: 1d8+14 (15-22) on regular hit (13/20), 3d8+2d6+42 on crit (47-78) (6/20). Expected damage: (18.5)(13/20)+(62.5)(6/20)=30.775 damage.

Battleaxe: 1d8+14 (15-22) on regular hit (15/20), 4d8+3d6+56 on crit (63-106) (4/20). Expected damage: 30.775 damage.

Scimitar/Rapier: 1d6+14 (15-20) on regular hit (11/20), 5d6+42 (47-72) on crit (8/20). Expected damage: 33.425 damage. (Better than the bastard sword, and doesn't require Exotic Proficiency!)

...someone who's actually completed a course on probability and statistics (I'm in the middle of one) check my math.

(edit: WM-enhanced battleaxe is x4, not x3)

Last edited by Vlad Antlerkov on 01-03-2005 at 11:21

	01-03-2005 11:29									#143
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I'll take your word on it for the math

but that's not factoring in creatures who are immune to critical hits.

	01-03-2005 17:12									#144
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Or the fact that there are hatloads more magic longswords and shortswords than other types of magic sword lying about.

I'm afraid that I didn't even load NWN last night (the night the duchess works away, and usually a NWN marathon for at least 3 hours). I turned the computer on, played a couple of games of freecell, and then thought I'd try something out in Civ 2. Two and a half hours later....

I'll have to try to squeeze in a little more play this week with my dual-wield dex-based character (), just so that I have something to post about in this thread.

	01-03-2005 18:49									#145
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quote: From a combat perspective, I can't see why one would take a halberd over a great-axe. They have the same critical threat and damage, yes, but the greataxe has a base damage of 1d12, while the halberd does 1d10.

Halberd does slashing and piercing damage. Greataxe just slashing damage.

Rapiers are EXCELLENT especially for DEX based weaponmasters, but against undead/constructs/etc all crit-based or sneak-based builds have a hard time. Even a damage resistance of 5/- or 10/- can make that skeleton lord invunerable to your rapier master You did pack a holy mace, right?

Ah... the temptation of the scythe. But how often do you find good scythes? Often enough that every server has a good handful of scytheweaponmasters, sadly. Its a cliché

Now an original character design would be some kind of heavy flail using Weaponmaster/Monk/Cleric Imagine some medieval Abbot freaking out in combat.

-Jam

	01-03-2005 23:37									#146
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Yeah, the best in reality depends on what items there are on the server (or in the module).

Vlad, did you look at comparing the two-handed weapons with two kukris or something similar?

	02-03-2005 01:20									#147
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No, so I'll try that now. Assuming, again, 26 STR, Devastating Critical, all that jazz.

RH kukri: 1d4+14 damage (15-18, average 16.5) on regular hit (11/20), 3d4+2d6+42 on critical (47-66, average 56.5) (8/20). Expected damage: 31.675 (yes, the expanded threat range IS that powerful)

LH kukri: Expected damage of 24.675.

And for the hell of it, Unarmed Strike maxed out (20 monk levels, plus all the other stuff, so base damage of 1d20): 1d20+14 (15-34, avg 24.5) on regular (17/20), 2d20+1d6+28 (31-74, avg 52.5) on critical (2/20). Expected damage of 26.075... but seven attacks (assuming four fighter levels pre-epic).

Now, let's assume all the attacks (five or seven, as the case may be) actually land.

Scythe: 5*43.05=215.25 damage.
Greatsword: 5*40.85=204.25
Greataxe: 5*40.075=200.375
Two kukris: 5*31.675+2*24.675=207.725 (though you get two extra chances at Devastating Critical... Of course, two scimitars would be even better than this.)
Unarmed strike: 7*26.075=182.525. Again, doesn't stack up very well, but you have seven chances at Devastating Critical, plus all those other Monkish abilities.

Now I feel the urge to make an Excel spreadsheet or MATLAB program that can automatically calculate expected damage based on enhancements, keenness, etc. but not now, gotta work through midterms first...

	02-03-2005 03:04									#148
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Nicely done, though when I looked at this (briefly) before I decided relative effectiveness varied by level. Chance to hit might play a role as well (you assume all attacks land in your example) which can make the greatsword better for foes with a certain range of ACs and dual kukris better for a different range.

Nice to see they are quite balanced in your scenario though.

	02-03-2005 10:38									#149
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I don't even do that much math on my taxes........

ACK!

	02-03-2005 17:06									#150
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Which weapon does having a massive strength (26, for argument's sake ) improve the most? I'd imagine the sling, if you still get the strength bonus you got in BG, but maybe it's something else.