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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I take it it's a dwarven princess?  |
Of course. 
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Asherian. Who would've thunk it.
By the way, you reached the endgame surprisingly quick. That's not a good indicator for a game with depth; sounds rather like cheap mass entertainment. They should make levels a tad bit harder to gain. I'm playing EQ2 quite intensely (practically all my spare time) since launch and am at level 37 of 50 now. |
That's one reason I don't like EQ2 and I love WoW, that it's not unrealistic and elitist. You don't need to invest 10000 hours to get to L50...
I've been playing my main (Asherian) a lot since December, daily even, I don't think 3+ months is unreasonable to reach the end-game. Particularly when it doesn't actually end at the "end-game", there's still raids and instances I haven't done, armor sets I need to have, epic mounts to buy, and PvP honour system to move up in to unlock more stuff with.
Not to mention the upcoming instances. 
My main focus right now is leveling my Horde Warrior alt on Boulderfist, and my Night Elf Priest alt.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
That's one reason I don't like EQ2 and I love WoW, that it's not unrealistic and elitist. You don't need to invest 10000 hours to get to L50... |
What does leveling slower and actually having a chance to make the hundreds of quests before their reward gets obsolete have in common with being unrealistic and elitist? Au contraire, racing to the end level in no time and then only raiding for teh ph4t l3wtz, that is what I am calling elitist.
By the way, I am at 37 days pure game time now (thanks to a website letting me know about this), that's not even 1000 hours. And I loved every single one of them, well maybe except the tradeskilling bit, which is way more challenging than in WoW, but some perceive it as boring timesink.
On a sidenote, I did not mean to run your favorite game down, even though your posts classify you as a bit of a fanboi and it's fun to tease those. I will play WoW myself, after I reached level 50 in EQ2, and I'm sure I will like it no less. Just my point of view is, that a MMORPG is usually designed for several years, and if you can "beat it" (meaning: reaching end game content) in a few weeks, it somehow feels like designed like for juvenile players with a short attention span.
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I've been playing my main (Asherian) a lot since December, daily even, I don't think 3+ months is unreasonable to reach the end-game. Particularly when it doesn't actually end at the "end-game", there's still raids and instances I haven't done, armor sets I need to have, epic mounts to buy, and PvP honour system to move up in to unlock more stuff with. |
Well, that's what I call endgame content.
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:31
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Sir Ralph, the "average" player, of which I classify myself (from launch day), is hitting level 50 right about now. Which I just did the other day. It will probably take me another few weeks to hit 60, at which point more of the "end game" content will be out. Blizzard designed the game for the casual player, hence leveling is not a pain, but people who put more time into it will certainly do it faster. I would say with 37 pure days of gametime, you are not a casual player (which is fine, everyone has different play speeds), hence you would probably blast to level 60 in WoW relatively quickly. That's not a flaw with the game; it's just an issue of what audience they are playing to.
Last edited by ZargonX on 21-03-2005 at 22:19
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:31
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Well, the 37 days contain full 4 weeks of christmas vacation, which were completely dedicated to EQ2 with 12-16 hours every day. But this is an exception, I can't play that much in normal work time by any means. So my classification as hardcore player may be distorted a bit by this fact. I'm not a casual player either, however.
The bulk of EQ2 players, who played since launch, are now in their late 20's - early 30's. I'm a bit above this, but players in my level range begin to grow thin. Not that I would have problems to group, I am in a good guild with a large level span, but still it feels.
Nonetheless, if you want to level fast in EQ2, you can do it just as well as in WoW. As far as I remember, the first player hit level 50 only 22 days after launch. In every game you will find people with no life and mostly no job, who can play 24/7 with small breaks for sleep with the only goal to level fast. We call them "scarecrow campers", since animated scarecrows are pretty hard encounters in the lower-mid levels of EQ2 (there are many fields full of them) and thus, provide a lot of experience. So people eager to level will camp and chain-pull them in masses, without caring about the other game content. This is, however, far from my playstyle. If I play a game, I want to see all of it, and take my time.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
What does leveling slower and actually having a chance to make the hundreds of quests before their reward gets obsolete have in common with being unrealistic and elitist? Au contraire, racing to the end level in no time and then only raiding for teh ph4t l3wtz, that is what I am calling elitist. |
That's not elitist at all. What's elitist about games like EQ2 and FFXI is it takes forever to level. It allows people with entirely too much time to dedicate to always be "better" than the casual player who plays for fun. In other words, it allows people with nothing else in life to finally be better than everyone else. That's why it's so addictive to many people.
WoW focuses on fun for the casual player -- it's not unattainable to reach the end game. In fact, everyone can enjoy it.
One of the main differences between EQ2 and WoW is the endgame in WoW is not really the endgame -- there are PvP raids, there is the reputation system to work up in (my friend is spending a lot of time to get to Revered with the Argent Dawn to get some very rare recipes he can use to make some money), there will be the Battlefields system, the PvP Honour System and Rewards, not to mention the array of instances still to come, new zones, etc. I highly recommend you read about the Battlegrounds and PvP Honour systems especially.
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On a sidenote, I did not mean to run your favorite game down, even though your posts classify you as a bit of a fanboi and it's fun to tease those. I will play WoW myself, after I reached level 50 in EQ2, and I'm sure I will like it no less. Just my point of view is, that a MMORPG is usually designed for several years, and if you can "beat it" (meaning: reaching end game content) in a few weeks, it somehow feels like designed like for juvenile players with a short attention span. |
There we go again with the EQ2 elitism. 
The end-game content, by and large, isn't even in yet. Hell, it wasn't too long ago that 50 was the level cap. There is far more to WoW than leveling, which is one reason it's way better than EQ2 in my opinion (that and the EQ2 engine was designed by people with no concept of efficient design).
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Well, that's what I call endgame content. |
While "endgame" aptly describes EQ2 at L50, it doesn't describe WoW at L60. WoW isn't your typical EQ2-clone MMORPG that focuses on leveling with insane XP requirements.
It's designed to let you play with multiple classes and let the casual player hit L60. Most players in WoW have multiple "alts" they play, especially as they hit L60 with their primary. It's entirely different to play as a Human Paladin than as a Tauren Shaman, and it's something that's easy to do in WoW.
EQ2 has many fundamental design flaws, and most people see that from a casual look. There's a reason WoW has more than 1.5M subscribers already...and what's EQ2 at, 200,000?
WoW is addictive because it's fun, EQ2 is addictive by design. There's a huge difference.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:31
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If you expect to do damage, don't be a Paladin. They have one of the lowest damage rates in the game. The Paladin's role is to survive, be an off-tank and be a backup healer. In the lore, Paladins are the "commanders" of the battlefield (hence why they get a free warhorse mount), they're to be the "last man standing".
They do dismal damage output, but they're difficult to kill. When I duel people or PvP people, if I win it's because I can outlast them.
There's tons of cool Paladin skills...Divine Shield is the most famous. It's instant-cast, removes all bad spells from you, and makes you invulnerable for 12 seconds...you can still cast spells and move around, but your melee attack speed is reduced by 50%. If you attack while using it, you're dumb.  I usually use it strategically.
When I'm dueling a mage and I see him do Combustion and start to pryoblast (which can do 1200-1500 dmg plus 800 over 12 second...insane), I shield right before I think he's going to cast, then heal. Or I shield when I'm low on health and don't have enough time to throw a heal in... etc. It's on a 5 minute cooldown timer.
There's Lay on Hands, which is a 60minute (40 minute with invested talent point) cooldown. It can be used on you or anyone in your group. When you use it, it instantly restores health equal to your maximum health on the target (for me, it'll restore 4700 health instantly), plus 500 mana on the target I specify. The downside is it uses "all" of my mana to do so. But it doesn't cost any mana. It's awesome when I have just almost no mana (<100) and I'm about to bite the dust, or the priest in the group is about to bite the dust...I'll cast LoH on him or me, get full health and 500 mana (almost enough for a full heal as well).
There's also Divine Intervention...essentially for high-level raids. If at any time I feel we're going to "wipe" in an instance, I'll cast Divine Intervention on someone who can resurrect someone in the group and order everyone else to die (ie, let the mobs kill them). For 30 seconds, the person I cast DI on has 0 aggro but can't move. Once the rest of the party's dead, the mobs go back to where they came from...when the DI fades, the person then resurrects the party and we try again. It's a huge lifesaver.
There's also smaller stuff like the Seal of Wisdom, which has a chance to restore 90 mana per hit...it also saved my life lots of times when we've been in long battles, since it gave me many heals out of it. And the Blessing of Wisdom which will always restore 36 mana/5 seconds, on anyone I cast it.
Anyway I'm rambling. I could go on and on about Paly skills and strategies. I've re-specced 5 times, and have found the ultimate build now IMO.
The point is, Paladins are support characters. They're overpowered from levels 20-40 (mainly due to an insane weapon we get from a quest), but your damage won't increase past L40...period. Everyone else continues ramping up. By L60, it'll take you forever to kill a mob of equal level.
Paladins exist to survive and in a support/command role.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
That's not elitist at all. What's elitist about games like EQ2 and FFXI is it takes forever to level. It allows people with entirely too much time to dedicate to always be "better" than the casual player who plays for fun. In other words, it allows people with nothing else in life to finally be better than everyone else. That's why it's so addictive to many people.
WoW focuses on fun for the casual player -- it's not unattainable to reach the end game. In fact, everyone can enjoy it. |
Fun and enjoyment is just like beauty always in the eye of the beholder. Some find nearly effortless advance enjoyable, some prefer a challenge. I am a chess player (some people here know this) and go with the challenge if I have a choice. A majority of players may prefer the easier way. Isn't it wonderful that there are different games for a different audience?
It's obviously pointless to argue over personal preferences, don't you agree?
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One of the main differences between EQ2 and WoW is the endgame in WoW is not really the endgame -- there are PvP raids, there is the reputation system to work up in (my friend is spending a lot of time to get to Revered with the Argent Dawn to get some very rare recipes he can use to make some money), there will be the Battlefields system, the PvP Honour System and Rewards, not to mention the array of instances still to come, new zones, etc. I highly recommend you read about the Battlegrounds and PvP Honour systems especially. |
You might try to inform yourself before you make such bold statement. Everquest 2 also has quite some endgame content, even though not many players hit the level cap yet. It also has epic mounts to earn (ghostly steeds, flying carpets, the latter IMO being a bit lame), the right to visit the Queen or the Overlord (depending on faction) and being rewarded with nobility titles, there already is a good high level raid content and more dungeons and zones are added on about a weekly basis. Oh and by the way, there are rare epic recipes with rare epic ingredients dropped from endgame mobs, too. Of course I am not quite there.
The PvP-system is lacking, however. I would prefer if it would be introduced at least in the end-game. Some others (I reckon the majority) don't give a rats rear on it. I don't have big emotions on this. If they add PvP, fine. If not and I'm eager for it, I roll a WoW character. Thankfully, this shouldn't take more than a few weeks.
By the way, level 50 is not the end in EQ2 either. According to the developers, the hard level cap is 200. This leaves quite a lot of room for further advancement.
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While "endgame" aptly describes EQ2 at L50, it doesn't describe WoW at L60. WoW isn't your typical EQ2-clone MMORPG that focuses on leveling with insane XP requirements. |
My typical advance is about 2 adventuring levels in a week, while actively tradeskilling and earning 1-2 levels there too. That makes 1 level (either way) in 2 days. I wouldn't want a quicker advance.
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It's designed to let you play with multiple classes and let the casual player hit L60. Most players in WoW have multiple "alts" they play, especially as they hit L60 with their primary. It's entirely different to play as a Human Paladin than as a Tauren Shaman, and it's something that's easy to do in WoW. |
Really. That's a huge advantage of WoW indeed... not.
I have a dwarven paladin (main), an high elven wizard, an halfling rogue and an erudite priest (I stick with the mainstream, some others play abominations like troll paladins, gnome warriors or ogre wizards) and I plan on rolling a ratonga ranger in the near future.
Of course, it will take some more time to do it than it would in WoW.
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EQ2 has many fundamental design flaws, and most people see that from a casual look. |
Ok, I bite. What are they?
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There's a reason WoW has more than 1.5M subscribers already...and what's EQ2 at, 200,000? |
350,000 in february, don't know about now. But the audience is quite different. Call it elitary all you want.
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WoW is addictive because it's fun, EQ2 is addictive by design. There's a huge difference. |
How can something be addictive by design without being fun? Enlighten me.
EDIT: Your epic endgame pictures look impressive, but can you explain me, why they keep reminding me of Captain America?
Last edited by Sir Ralph on 22-03-2005 at 18:10
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
You might try to inform yourself before you make such bold statement. Everquest 2 also has quite some endgame content, even though not many players hit the level cap yet. It also has epic mounts to earn (ghostly steeds, flying carpets, the latter IMO being a bit lame), the right to visit the Queen or the Overlord (depending on faction) and being rewarded with nobility titles, there already is a good high level raid content and more dungeons and zones are added on about a weekly basis. Oh and by the way, there are rare epic recipes with rare epic ingredients dropped from endgame mobs, too. Of course I am not quite there. |
That's the same thing WoW has, but more with the battlegrounds and PvP honour system. In fact, those are the most interesting parts of the endgame. Farming for new items/recipes/reputation is only so fun, but having Battleground systems and the PvP honour system is something else.
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By the way, level 50 is not the end in EQ2 either. According to the developers, the hard level cap is 200. This leaves quite a lot of room for further advancement. |
60 isn't the end cap for WoW either. In fact, in much of the beta, the cap was 50. The cap increases as content becomes available, it, too, will increase like EQ2.
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Really. That's a huge advantage of WoW indeed... not.
I have a dwarven paladin (main), an high elven wizard, an halfling rogue and an erudite priest (I stick with the mainstream, some others play abominations like troll paladins, gnome warriors or ogre wizards) and I plan on rolling a ratonga ranger in the near future.
Of course, it will take some more time to do it than it would in WoW. |
A lot more time. What levels are they? 
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Ok, I bite. What are they? |
The lack of a real conflict in the playerbase (ie, Horde vs Alliance).
The lack of a real marketplace system.
The lack of PvP (perhaps not fundamental, but definitely a lame decision)
The hideous art direction and style
Poor interface design (the black bars in particular drive me nuts, talk about wasted space)
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350,000 in february, don't know about now. But the audience is quite different. Call it elitary all you want. |
Let's just say EQ2 players are more likely to LARP on the weekends.
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How can something be addictive by design without being fun? Enlighten me. |
Because they're designed to cater to elitism. The urge to get to the high levels because then you're finally better than everyone else. It's about satisfying a psychological urge instead of having fun. Some people have fun in the process, but it's still the same in the long run.
WoW is designed to be fun. There's no tricks into getting players buying multiple accounts, for instance. Leveling isn't a painful experience.
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EDIT: Your epic endgame pictures look impressive, but can you explain me, why they keep reminding me of Captain America? |
Which epic endgame pictures?
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
A lot more time. What levels are they? |
They are my tradeskilling alts, so their adventurer level is only 8. You can be a tradeskiller in EQ2 without being an adventurer, actually. Time will come I set them off as adventurer, too.
The elven mage is a jeweler and has tradeskill level 28. The halfling rogue is a level 24 woodworker. And the erudite priestess is a level 32 alchemist. Tradeskill levels are comparably hard to attain as adventurer levels.
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The lack of a real conflict in the playerbase (ie, Horde vs Alliance). |
I give you this one, I am angry about this myself.
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The lack of a real marketplace system. |
It has a marketplace system (the "broker"), with a sufficiently good search system. What it does not have yet, is offline selling. This however is about to change, and soon. I give it one more month.
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The lack of PvP (perhaps not fundamental, but definitely a lame decision) |
Umm, that's the same as your first point. It does not count extra. There is no "real" conflict in the playerbase without actually having PvP.
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The hideous art direction and style |
That's HEAVILY in the eye of the beholder, ya know.
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Poor interface design (the black bars in particular drive me nuts, talk about wasted space) |
What black bars?
Are you referring to the empty areas above and below your gaming window? They are there to place your user controls. If you don't like them, you can increase the size of the central viewport and even make them vanish completely.
Now where's the wasted space?
Everything is by the way customizable, and nicely so.
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Because they're designed to cater to elitism. The urge to get to the high levels because then you're finally better than everyone else. It's about satisfying a psychological urge instead of having fun. |
That's a bit weak, friend.
WoW is also about getting to the high levels, perhaps even more so. Because not being there makes you worse than everybody else. So the difference is slim. In WoW it's ridiculously easy, in EQ2 you have to earn your level, but in the end the result remains the same.
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WoW is designed to be fun. There's no tricks into getting players buying multiple accounts, for instance. |
The EQ2 playerbase taught Sony a thing or two about this. Multiple accounts were needed for the lack of offline selling. This is about to change in the next month.
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Which epic endgame pictures? |
I refer to that Orc Shaman in Earthshaker armor. Looks like a toy soldier for eight years old.
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21-03-2005 04:34
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