25-03-2005 07:29									#151
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Republicans pissed on the constitution? In what way?

	25-03-2005 07:29									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No doubt that Republicans are pressing this issue. But the Dems are not united in opposition. Many, even if not a majority of Dems, are supportive.

As I said, the Dems were allowed to vote their conscience. Even then, only 47 voted in favor. That's barely over a quarter of their House numbers.

Conversely, Republicans weren't allowed to vote their conscience. They were whipped by Tom DeLay, eager to get his scandals out of the news. Probably a good number of them didn't really want to intervene.

Interesting examination of the Senate bill:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7013421/#050323a

quote: Ironically, the politicization of Terri Schiavo and the play for evangelical voters looks like it may now cause Bill Frist more harm than good. The latest polls show Americans overwhelming against Congress getting involved in the case. And these were polls conducted BEFORE most Americans saw the fine print of the Congressional Schiavo bill. Despite the sweeping floor statements about "protecting life," the legislation itself did not require the federal courts to start by reinserting Schiavo's feeding tube. And while the bill does give the Schiavo family "jurisdiction and standing" to make an argument in federal court, take a look at Section 3 called "relief." Section 3 states, "After a determination of the merits of a suit brought under this Act, the District Court shall issue such declaratory and injunctive relief as may be necessary..." The key words are "after a determination..." Congress did not say the federal court must accept the merits of the lawsuit.

The GOP has conned the religious right yet again.

	25-03-2005 07:30									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Republicans pissed on the constitution? In what way?

seperation of powers... legislation aimed at an individual... disregarding any notion of states rights

	25-03-2005 07:31									#154
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Boris, here's more:

quote: Senate, House Democrats differed in handling of Schiavo bill By LARRY LIPMAN Cox News Service Wednesday, March 23, 2005 WASHINGTON — When the Senate vote came Sunday afternoon to allow the parents of Terri Schiavo to by-pass the Florida courts and take the brain-damaged woman's case directly to federal court, Democrats were nowhere to be found. Only three senators were in the chamber for the 4:30 p.m. vote: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, of Tennessee, Sen. John Warner of Virginia, and the bill's sponsor, Sen. Mel Martinez of Florida, sitting in the presiding officer's chair. With no objections, the three Republican senators waived the rules and passed the bill on a voice vote.

Because there were NO Democrats in the chamber, the Republicans voted to waive the rules on quorum and pass the bill on voice vote. Sneaky, underhand tricks.

Ned, it was unanimous in the Senate of 3! No Democrat voted for the bill.

	25-03-2005 07:32									#155
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Boris, I have no doubt that the Religious Right is rabid about this issue. But does that require the more secular Democrats to react in reflexive opposition?

I would suggest that there is a moderate position somewhere in the middle. That is where the Democrat party should position itself if it really wants to win elections in the future.

	25-03-2005 07:33									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Sava seperation of powers... legislation aimed at an individual... disregarding any notion of states rights

Yep... especially on seperation of power and states rights issues, the Republicans acted like Constitution didn't exist.

	25-03-2005 07:33									#157
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It disturbs me that any bill can be passed in such a way. That should be addressed. No bill should make it out of any chamber without quorum, at least.

	25-03-2005 07:34									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yep... especially on seperation of power and states rights issues, the Republicans acted like Constitution didn't exist.

IMO, what they did should be criminal...

	25-03-2005 07:35									#159
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Sava and Imran, but all the legislation did is give jurisdiction to the district courts to here Federal questions regarding Terry. The legislation did not grant the courts any right to interfere with state law.

	25-03-2005 07:39									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I have no doubt that the Religious Right is rabid about this issue. But does that require the more secular Democrats to react in reflexive opposition?

Obviously not, since they didn't. I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I for one think the Democrats handled this issue perfectly. They let the GOP torpedo themselves with it. It's always best to step back and let the opposition sink itself.

quote: I would suggest that there is a moderate position somewhere in the middle. That is where the Democrat party should position itself if it really wants to win elections in the future.

The moderate position was staked out by the Dems--they let their members vote how they wanted, and officially "didn't get involved." Can't get much more moderate than that.

	25-03-2005 07:39									#161
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Imran, apparently you do not understand "unanimous consent" legislation. The Senate can only act in such matters if no Senator objects. The vote was take with the knowledge and consent of every Senator, present or not.

	25-03-2005 07:39									#162
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Imran knows more about such things than me... but AFAIK, it's pretty clear this is a violation of the seperation of powers as outlined in the Constitution.

	25-03-2005 07:40									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Imran, apparently you do not understand "unanimous consent" legislation. The Senate can only act in such matters if no Senator objects. The vote was take with the knowledge and consent of every Senator, present or not.

any evidence for this claim?

	25-03-2005 07:41									#164
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quote: all the legislation did is give jurisdiction to the district courts to here Federal questions regarding Terry. The legislation did not grant the courts any right to interfere with state law.

Um, giving jurisdiction to the federal district to REOPEN the case violates the soveriegnty of the Florida court system. The case was sent up to the US Supreme Court and it denied the appeal.

It went up and down the state courts and the parents never brought up the federal issue until the case was done with.

The law violates the principle of res judicata.


And this isn't a 'liberal' interpretation. The FOX News legal analyist said it was blatently unconstitutional.

	25-03-2005 07:41									#165
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Boris, you are right on the call of the Dems. It was "moderate." That is why I resist thinking of this issue as a Republican vs. Democrat issue. It is not.

	25-03-2005 07:42									#166
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Doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's not in anyway indicative that the Senate Dems "supported" the measure--just that they wanted to stay out of it. They knew full well that there was no reason to go in and voice any opinion when the GOP was so effectively shooting themselves in the foot.

Ned doesn't seem to understand that the official Dem ambivalence was a calculated political move, and so far it has worked well.

	25-03-2005 07:43									#167
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Ned, to my knowledge, nobody has said this is a Dem vs Repuke issue. My position is that this is being driven by the Repukes. But it's possible for this issue to be driven by one party without it being party vs party.

	25-03-2005 07:43									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, you are right on the call of the Dems. It was "moderate." That is why I resist thinking of this issue as a Republican vs. Democrat issue. It is not.

Oh, I agree. It's a Republican vs. the Constitution issue. And Republican vs. common sense. And Republican vs. American majority sentiment. And Republican vs. personal liberty and the rights of the individual. Etc., ad nauseum.

	25-03-2005 07:44									#169
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Imran, the Feds always seem to be receptive of new evidence when Habeas Corpus petitions are involved. They are not bound by the record of the state courts in such cases.

Why should a de novo hearing involving Federal Rights violate State Rights?

	25-03-2005 07:45									#170
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BTW, Sen. Warner of Virgina opposed the bill in the voice vote. So it was passed 2-1 in a voice vote where only 3 Republicans were present.

	25-03-2005 07:46									#171
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Boris, if so, the Dems should make an issue of what the Republicans are doing or attempting to do. But that is where the opinions of Hillary and Dean are important. The opinions of us common folk, Dem or Republican respectively, do no count.

	25-03-2005 07:47									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov BTW, Sen. Warner of Virgina opposed the bill in the voice vote. So it was passed 2-1 in a voice vote where only 3 Republicans were present.

Boris, I think then that Warner was the sole dissenting vote.

BTW, for the record, Warner is a Republican. This illustrates that the Republican party is not united on this issue as well.

	25-03-2005 07:48									#173
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quote: the Feds always seem to be receptive of new evidence when Habeas Corpus petitions are involved. They are not bound by the record of the state courts in such cases.

Habeas corpus petitions involve jailed individuals. They have no application here. It is only in criminal cases, in order to release the accused from detention. This is a civil case.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court has rejected the appeal. The federal system decided not to take it.

quote: Why should a de novo hearing involving Federal Rights violate State Rights?

Because it weakens the Florida judiciary, by making their final civil court decisions reopenable. Therefore, there is no finality to any case in Florida cases if Congress has this power.

	25-03-2005 07:49									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, if so, the Dems should make an issue of what the Republicans are doing or attempting to do.

I'm sure they will, but they appear to be having the decency to wait until after Terri has passed away before they start their political wrangling over it.

BTW, here's a quote:

quote: "[The Republican Party] is demonstrating that they are for states' rights unless they don't like what states are doing. This couldn't be a more classic case of a state responsibility." "This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy. There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

---Rep. Chris Shays of CT (Republican)

	25-03-2005 07:51									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ned, to my knowledge, nobody has said this is a Dem vs Repuke issue. My position is that this is being driven by the Repukes. But it's possible for this issue to be driven by one party without it being party vs party.

Clearly Sava, this issue is being driven by social conservatives, who now largely find a home in the Republican Party. However, not all Republicans are on board, albeit, I suspect a majority are. But is also appears that many Dems are supportive as well.

	25-03-2005 07:53									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I think then that Warner was the sole dissenting vote.

Since I said the vote was 2-1, and Warner opposed it, I would have to agree. Wow, you sure are a math wiz, Ned.

quote: BTW, for the record, Warner is a Republican. This illustrates that the Republican party is not united on this issue as well.

Ah, but it's public perception that matters. And in the House, that certainly wasn't the case.

An excerpt from Warner's opposition:

quote: "It looks as if it's a wholly Republican exercise," Mr. Warner said, "but in the ranks of the Republican Party, there is not a unanimous view that Congress should be taking this step."

I don't think the Senate GOP is as much on the lunatic fringe as the House GOP is, but that is usually the case for either party. But the clear outcome of the voting is that it left Congress with a disctinct appearance that this was a Republican issue. You can thank Dr. Frist and his inappropriate Senate floor diagnosis and Tom "Desperate to Divert Attention" DeLay for that.

	25-03-2005 07:56									#177
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Imran, there are many different instances where appeals to the Feds can be made "on the record below" or by means of a "de novo" hearing before the district court.

The initial appeal by Terry's lawyers appeared to take the former route and was rebuffed by the Feds because the record below did not seem to create a substantial federal issue. They are now trying the second route through a de novo hearing.

But, as this legislation applies only to Terry, it cannot create "uncertainty" in other cases.

	25-03-2005 07:57									#178
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Boris, I say again that it cannot be made a partisan issue unless the Dems make it such. To date, they have not.

	25-03-2005 08:01									#179
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quote: there are many different instances where appeals to the Feds can be made "on the record below" or by means of a "de novo" hearing before the district court.

Not when the case has gone up and down the ladder and has ended in a final judgment.

That is called the principle of res judicata. Once a civil case is finished, it cannot be reopened. It is one of the most cherished underpinnings to our legal system.

Congress cannot simply case res judicata aside and claim that a federal court can reopen a closed case.

quote: Terry's lawyers appeared to take the former route and was rebuffed by the Feds because the record below did not seem to create a substantial federal issue.

And so it's done. The lawyers probably also tried to remove the case to federal court based on civil rights of Schiavo and the federal court system rejected it.

quote: But, as this legislation applies only to Terry, it cannot create "uncertainty" in other cases.

Of course it can. Simply because a legislation only applies to one person (which brings up the question of whether Congress' action is actually an attempt to pass a judicial order, which would violate the seperation of powers because only a court can do that), doesn't mean it dies with that person, even if they try to say it has no precedential value (Congress can't declare whether or not a law is precedent, that's the judiciary's right as well).

	25-03-2005 08:02									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I say again that it cannot be made a partisan issue unless the Dems make it such. To date, they have not.

The GOP made it a partisan issue. Did you read the talking points memo, believed to be from Santorum's office? They clearly were out to make it a partisan issue. Just because the Dems didn't rise to the bait and outfoxed the GOP doesn't make the GOP's meddling in this affair for their own political gain any less partisan.