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Joseph
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Ca. USA
Feb 2000
time: 21:32
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 30-03-2005 08:07
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#61
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Re: Re: Re: What are your thoughts on the new minuteman border patrol?
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Remove this text
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Right back at you.
Oh please, are you saying that with the money they send back they're building Hollywood-style mansions? Part of the video showed us what was built by one of the seasonal workers it followed: A hovel. His village was still dirt poor and he'd been building that "house" for 5 years piece by piece. The US isn't the "Get Rich Quick" scheme you think it is Whoha. These people are still well-below the US poverty line and much of what they make they need to support themselves here, like food, rent, and medical (farming is back-breaking work). Whatever is left over is still going to be very little. Frankly, Bush's little coronation ceremony earlier this year probably equalled a large chunk of what illegals have sent out of this country each year.
That is such horseshit. Why is it you think that these farmers use and abuse the cheap labor of illegals, hmm? BECAUSE THEY'RE CHEAP LABOR AND THEY'RE ILLEGAL!! They can get away with using and abusing them because politically businesses have more sway over government action against illegals than people pissing and moaning about, "they're taking the crap jobs that we don't work in the first place that we don't want anyway." More over, since they're inclined to use and ABUSE these people, why the f*ck would they be interested in replacing them? These farms are not about to replace cheap, undocumented Human labor with expensive, high-tech robots.
I find it moronic of you that you are putting words in my mouth with that dimwitted little strawman inspite of all the posts you've read of mine. I most certainly DO NOT think we need a "ghettoized slave labor class." I recognize the fact that we already do and that it needs to be stopped. Part of what we are doing in my Anthro class in this section is we watched a video following some people trying to get the strawberry pickers of Watson Valley to unionize in order to better fight for humane work condidtions. We saw the comparatively abysmal living conditions some have (though some do live somewhat comfortably). We saw the pitance they're paid (under minimum wage) without any benefits like health coverage. We saw that they'e constantly exposed to pesticides because the farm owners make them work in fields adjacent to ones just sprayed. Then there are the illegals that aren't working in the fields. Their jobs are still crap and the people still aren't about to be replaced with robo-cooks and AI-guided vacuum cleaners. Legal immigrants are here and are going to have more freedom in working towards and choosing jobs that they don't risk be deported if they're caught. An illegal isn't going to take a job as a doctor or lawyer or police officer or teacher or any other higher-profile career because they will draw attention to their own illegal status. That's why they take the low-level crap jobs: The risk of notice is far lower. Yes, there's probably competition for these crap jobs, but for illegals there aren't any other jobs for them to work. |
CNN reported a few days ago that over 20 BILLION a year is going to Mexico. 20 Billion.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
Borders are stupid. If you're serious about free trade and free flow of commodities, isn't labour the most important commodity?
If allowed to flow freely, surely populations would reach natural equilibrium and eliminate labour shortages/surpluses. |
This assumes that all areas are equal in all ways but labor needs, and that people would simply migrate to where they were needed without regards for any social, cultural, or underlying economic concerns. This assumption is completely unwarranted. Eliminating borders would simply end up with the more prosperous nations being suddenly flooded by third world immigrants. The first world wouldn't be able to handle the short term shock of such a flood, and their economies would collapse. Maybe there would be an equilibrium after that, but it's a process that wouldn't be worth it for us in the first world, and wouldn't do anything to help the third world.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
Why wouldn't it be worth it?
Our prosperity is an artifact of our historical exploitation of them.
Before we can go forward as a race (that is, a human race), we must rebalance. That means that in the short term, American and other countries wages and quality of life must and will fall, as they compete with the third world on a totally level playing field. |
That, or we'll see the first world become violent as it's citizens' standard of living plummets to meet third world standards. Meanwhile, the third world itself has no incentive to improve, as it's citzens flee in droves to the newly open first world. Why build up infrastructure in Angola when you can flock to France, Britain, US, Austria, etc.? Suddenly open borders are completely unrealistic, and I think completely undesireable. The best way to go would be to give people incentives to stay in and improve their countries.
The only way that this world equilibrium can be remedied is over a long period of time, when the situations inside the third world countires are bearable enough that the majority wouldn't flee if given the chance, and attractive enough that people from currently developed countries would be enticed to relocate there. That's the only way this process can take place without significant bloodshed and turmoil.
quote:
I think that you place too much importance of 'social/cultural' crap and not enough on money. |
Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd like to be able to speak to my neigbors without an interpretor. Besides, I think you're underestimating the reaction of the citizens of the first world to the sudden drop in their standard of living, combined with a convenient scapegoat for such a sudden drop.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
"The best way to go would be to give people incentives to stay in and improve their countries"
Open borders would cause an immediate drop in income and quality of life during the 'first wave'. Right after this initial period, what incentive would there be for them to move if the wages and lifestyle in the countries are not much different? |
What is the time frame you're envisioning for this "first wave?" If you're talking 10 years, then you're practically advocating bringing all countries to third world living standards. The infrastructure of the third world isn't going to improve over 10 years, and the average wages inside those countries wouldn't likely change during the "first wave", as the demand in those countries would fall as the population migrate en masse. If the "first wave" is going to bring all countries to levels similar enough to make the differences between them negligible, and the third world isn't going to improve, then the logical conclusion is that the developed countires will, in effect, become third world countries. You don't think that that would create unimaginable chaos in the developed world?
Nothing puts a democracy on the path to authoritarianism more quickly than a sudden, sustained economic crisis. An economic change strong enough to make first world countires effectively third world countries within a relatively short time frame would result in chaos and most likely authoritarian/ quasi-authoritarian.
BTW, are you a Libertarian?
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
And having lived and worked in foreign countries it's amazing how little a barrier 'language and culture' is once you realize that everyone just wants money, fun, security, and love. |
Which is why, when suddenly deprived of these things through the choas inherent in the sudden mass migration of hundreds of millions of people, those in the first world would react violently to suddenly open borders.
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Whoha
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The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:32
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quote:
[SIZE=1] Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Oh please, are you saying that with the money they send back they're building Hollywood-style mansions? Part of the video showed us what was built by one of the seasonal workers it followed: A hovel. His village was still dirt poor and he'd been building that "house" for 5 years piece by piece. The US isn't the "Get Rich Quick" scheme you think it is Whoha. These people are still well-below the US poverty line and much of what they make they need to support themselves here, like food, rent, and medical (farming is back-breaking work). Whatever is left over is still going to be very little. Frankly, Bush's little coronation ceremony earlier this year probably equalled a large chunk of what illegals have sent out of this country each year.
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Remittances are Mexico's #2 source of income. just short of oil exports. And since we are already transfering productive capability to Mexico, and already run a trade deficit with them, we know that the money isn't coming up here to buy our goods. That is hurting our economy, whether it is 1 dollar or 600 Billion such dollars as was the case last year in total.
quote:
That is such horseshit. Why is it you think that these farmers use and abuse the cheap labor of illegals, hmm? BECAUSE THEY'RE CHEAP LABOR AND THEY'RE ILLEGAL!! They can get away with using and abusing them because politically businesses have more sway over government action against illegals than people pissing and moaning about, "they're taking the crap jobs that we don't work in the first place that we don't want anyway." More over, since they're inclined to use and ABUSE these people, why the f*ck would they be interested in replacing them? These farms are not about to replace cheap, undocumented Human labor with expensive, high-tech robots.
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That is correct, and the only thing that will stop that situation is an enforcement capability.
"But starting in the 1950s in Australia (where there was no large supply of foreign farm labor), farmers were compelled by circumstances to develop a laborsaving method called “dried-on-the-vine” production. This involves growing the grapevines on trellises, then, when the grapes are ready, cutting the base of the vine instead of cutting each bunch of grapes individually. This new method radically reduces labor demand at harvest time and increases yield per acre by up to 200 percent. But this high-productivity, innovative method of production has spread very slowly in the United States because the mass availability of foreign workers has served as a disincentive to farmers to make the necessary capital investment."
We still pick raisins individually by hand in this country. Those high tech super space robots of the future sure helped Austrailia out...
quote:
I find it moronic of you that you are putting words in my mouth with that dimwitted little strawman inspite of all the posts you've read of mine. I most certainly DO NOT think we need a "ghettoized slave labor class." I recognize the fact that we already do and that it needs to be stopped. Part of what we are doing in my Anthro class in this section is we watched a video following some people trying to get the strawberry pickers of Watson Valley to unionize in order to better fight for humane work condidtions. We saw the comparatively abysmal living conditions some have (though some do live somewhat comfortably). We saw the pitance they're paid (under minimum wage) without any benefits like health coverage. We saw that they'e constantly exposed to pesticides because the farm owners make them work in fields adjacent to ones just sprayed. Then there are the illegals that aren't working in the fields. Their jobs are still crap and the people still aren't about to be replaced with robo-cooks and AI-guided vacuum cleaners. Legal immigrants are here and are going to have more freedom in working towards and choosing jobs that they don't risk be deported if they're caught. An illegal isn't going to take a job as a doctor or lawyer or police officer or teacher or any other higher-profile career because they will draw attention to their own illegal status. That's why they take the low-level crap jobs: The risk of notice is far lower. Yes, there's probably competition for these crap jobs, but for illegals there aren't any other jobs for them to work. |
It is not a strawman, without an enforcement capability, then illegals will continue to stream over, even if it was required of businesses to pay them what they'd have to pay a citizen. They are already breaking the law, and if it means the difference between getting a job here or not they'd continue to do so. and businesses would continue to exploit them, because how are you going to find out what they are doing?
After this is in place though, we have a choice, reward the illegals who broke our laws, or reward the people who followed our rules,waited in line, persisted in waiting even as they got skipped back for illegals,crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's,etc. How about we reward people who follow our laws and not reward people that didn't?
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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:32
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 @ stupid vigilantes
This would be an instance where I'd support the use of beartraps 
quote:
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBY05C257E.html
Border Patrol Complains That Volunteers Are Tripping Sensors Used to Detect Illegal Crossers
By Arthur H. Rotstein Associated Press Writer
Published: Apr 4, 2005
TOMBSTONE, Ariz. (AP) - Volunteers who have converged on the Mexican border to watch for illegal immigrants are disrupting U.S. Border Patrol operations by unwittingly tripping sensors that alert agents to possible intruders, an agency spokesman complained Monday.
Scores of participants in the Minuteman Project began assembling late last week and planned to begin regular patrols on Monday, in an exercise some law enforcement authorities and civil rights groups fear will result in vigilante violence. Many of the volunteers were recruited over the Internet, and some planned to be armed.
Over the past few days, they have set off sensors, forcing agents to respond to false alarms, said Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Jose Maheda.
"Every sensor has to be addressed," Maheda said. "It's taken away from our normal operations."
The volunteers planned to start fanning out Monday across 23 miles of the San Pedro Valley to watch the border and report any illegal activity to federal agents.
The idea, according to project organizers, is partly to draw attention to problems on the Arizona-Mexico border, considered the most porous stretch of the 2,000-mile southern border. Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border.
Jim Coniglio of Tucson, who plans to patrol with other volunteers this week, said residents in some areas of the border have complained of being "overrun routinely" by migrants. "They're feeling insecure," he said.
The Border Patrol opposes the operation. "The possibility for something going drastically wrong is very high," Maheda said.
AP-ES-04-04-05 1515EDT |
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