05-04-2005 01:34									#91
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Well, I can't fault them for that. If I were a moron border patrol vigilante volunteer who wasn't getting paid for this, I wouldn't want to be out in the middle of the desert in the summer either.

	05-04-2005 01:35									#92
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Probably some of them will rethink their life. That wouldn't be too bad.

	05-04-2005 01:39									#93
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Bush is right, IMHO, on cooperating with Mexico in finding a solution that would allow document guest workers. Central, though, to any long term solution is reforming the Mexican economy so that the poorer Mexicans would have no need to come to the US to have a good life.

	05-04-2005 13:38									#94
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Psh, the minuteman idea is F.O.S.

Whatever happened to "bring me your tired and unwanted?"

America is such hypocratic it's unbelievable. It touts itself as being "the land of the free" and yet when other individuals try and get here, it says "No Vacancies". Whatevers.

I LIVE in an area where illegal immigrants come (it might not be the southern border states, but I'll bet I meet more illegal immigrants than you'll ever meet). And frankly, I don't mind.

"They" (illegal immigrants) bust their a** to try and make a better life for their children and if that aint the American spirit, then you should brush up on American ideology.





Unless you're a Native American Indian, you shouldn't have a right to complain about things. Hypocrisy abound.

	05-04-2005 14:41									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Unless you're a Native American Indian, you shouldn't have a right to complain about things. Hypocrisy abound.

So we aren't going to hear any more of your whining? I guess sometimes good things can come from stupid ideas, like a racial test in order to qualify for your right to free speech.

	05-04-2005 14:50									#96
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Lol. Then you obviously don't know that I'm a native of my homeland.

Might not be Native American, but my homeland WAS taken over by Americans. Learn about Hawaii history and then come back when you get educated, dude.

(Lorrin Thurston comes to mind........but my spelling might be a little off)

	05-04-2005 14:52									#97
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humans do not own land. Even the native americans stole the land. They had no right to it.

	05-04-2005 14:57									#98
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I wouldn't necessarily say they stole it insofar as in that they used it.

But 'using' and 'exploiting' are two different things entirely.

	05-04-2005 15:10									#99
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The first step toward getting a grip on this problem is a serious national ID card to replace the Social Security card. The new smarter card would be linked to a central record which contains a biometric identifier (like DNA, fingerprints etc.). When you take a job you would have to be positively indentified by the government before you could start. This should be relatively instantaneous but for security reasons would only be done by the government using its own agents and networks. This would take care of the fake SS cards and birth certificate problem at once, which would make a whole host of criminal activity (such as identity theft) much more difficult.

Now undocumented workers are going to have a very hard time working for most legitimate employers, as the employer cannot use the plausible deniabilty that forged SS cards now give him. Either your workers are government certified as legal or they or not. If not it's fines and jail time for the employer, and in most cases deportation for the illegals.

This will force a long overdue change in our immigration policy. We'll need a serious guest worker program to meet the needs that illegal workers are currently meeting in this country. Only now we'll be able to choose workers from other parts of the world than Central America also, we'll be able to exclude criminals more easily, and we'll be able to be more selective when it comes to skill sets etc.

The plus side for the guest worker is that they'll be afforded the same rights (obviously) that citizens take for granted in employment law etc. They won't have to avoid law enforcement constantly in order to avoid being deported, nor will they have to pay "coyotes" thousands of dollars to take them on death defying journeys across the American Southwest, or pay forgers for documents. They'll also be less likely to fall prey to organized criminals as they'll be less isolated from the police. Guest workers will have acess to all of the services typically available to citizens (schools, emergency services etc.). I'm not as sure what to do about payroll taxes, perhaps a partial rebate or exemption is in order there.

	05-04-2005 15:16									#100
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The only problem with that is that I'm not sure I want the government having everybody's fingerprints.

I for one have never been fingerprinted, and I'd sort of like to keep it that way.

	05-04-2005 15:17									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Lol. Then you obviously don't know that I'm a native of my homeland. Might not be Native American, but my homeland WAS taken over by Americans. Learn about Hawaii history and then come back when you get educated, dude. (Lorrin Thurston comes to mind........but my spelling might be a little off)

Yea, the poor downtrodden Chinese and Japanese who are now engaged in a debate about whether they should get one permanent seat on the security council or two. You're about as native Hawaiian as I am Cherokee.

And my homeland was taken over by Americans too! First it was the fvcking Indians, and then the Mexicans and now the U.S. claims sovereignty. A brother just can't catch a break!

	05-04-2005 15:19									#102
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The only problem with that is that I'm not sure I want the government having everybody's fingerprints. I for one have never been fingerprinted, and I'd sort of like to keep it that way.

I used to feel that way until I had to give the Feds my fingerprints. Now I've got nothing to lose. It's so much easier giving away other people's rights than you own!

	05-04-2005 15:24									#104
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definitely. I don't believe that illegal workers in our country (regardless of WHERE they are) should be allowed the same rights as naturalized citizens of the U.S. Nor should they be allowed governmental checks (disability, SS checks, etc). I paid my taxes so that others who paid their share get the same benefits I'll get.

Regardless of my feelings for illegal aliens, I don't believe they should gain the rights and privileges that are afforded to citizens.

I mean, they should be afforded the human rights, but they shouldn't be exploited. But in the same vein, they shouldn't be allowed to collect SS or disability because I believe that those should be given to naturalized citizens.

However, I think that a new set of laws should be created to bridge the gap between illegal alien rights, citizen rights and so on....just so we prevent total exploitation for illegal aliens...as well as them exploiting American citizen benefits.

	05-04-2005 15:28									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan definitely. I don't believe that illegal workers in our country (regardless of WHERE they are) should be allowed the same rights as naturalized citizens of the U.S. Nor should they be allowed governmental checks (disability, SS checks, etc). I paid my taxes so that others who paid their share get the same benefits I'll get.

you do realise that currently many illegal aliens are actually paying more taxes to the US government than would US citizens with the same salary?

	05-04-2005 15:36									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I was pointing to your hypocrisy. This people are trying to better their lives, and preventing them from crossing a line is immoral.

Oh, shut up. People are welcome here and all we ask is that they go through the legal process. It's not very hard nor is it very expensive but it is entirely unacceptable to let criminal law breaker just do what ever they want dispite the law. I realize that Republican bastards have done everything they can to prevent the enforcement of the law because individual business owners have benifeted from paying below mininium wage to illegal aliens but we still need to enforce our laws or they mean nothing. We need to enforce them upon illegal aliens and we need to enforce them upon unethical businesses who use illegal laborers in order to goose their profit margins.

	05-04-2005 15:36									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Yea, the poor downtrodden Chinese and Japanese who are now engaged in a debate about whether they should get one permanent seat on the security council or two. You're about as native Hawaiian as I am Cherokee. And my homeland was taken over by Americans too! First it was the fvcking Indians, and then the Mexicans and now the U.S. claims sovereignty. A brother just can't catch a break!

Then I hope you better get your tribes name because I am part Native Hawaiian. Glad to meet another member. And yes, I am watching the Akaka Bill and hope that it gets passed because that'll mean that the Native Hawaiian's will gain the same recognition as other natives.

And yes, I'm registered with Kamehameha Schools as a Kanaka Maoli. As well as OHA, although someone in the American govt 'decided' that exclusion of "certain individuals" is unconstitutional...despite the estates founder's last wishes.

While I won't get into the debate whether or not the Chinese or the Japense should get a permanent seat on the security council (I doubt my beliefs would be the same as yours) I will say that I am what I say I am.



And while I might not agree with the "Minuteman Militia" idea, I do agree that illegal immigrants shouldn't be afforded the same rights as citizens.

	05-04-2005 15:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse you do realise that currently many illegal aliens are actually paying more taxes to the US government than would US citizens with the same salary?

Or course I do. But I also realize that there are many illegal aliens who are gaining benefits (whether through unemployment fraud, SS fraud, etc etc). To just flat out and ignore this opposing fact would be just as bad as to say that all immigrants are exploited.

Which MANY of them are. I'm just trying to point out that not all of the immigrants are paying a heck of a lot more taxes.

	05-04-2005 15:42									#109
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse you do realise that currently many illegal aliens are actually paying more taxes to the US government than would US citizens with the same salary?

CNN had a special on that tonight and it was proven to b e a myth. The truth is most illegals work under the table in a cash economy which doesn't pay taxes. Illegals end up consuming far more government services then they ever pay in taxes. The worst offenders are criminal illegal aliens who get imprisioned, Currently there are close to one million illegal aliens in American jails where nearly the entire cost is paid by state or local governments. Several states are suing the federal government because they claim, rightly in my mind, that the federal government is deliberately not securing the border in order to appease business interests. The country of Los Angles (not counting the various cities in the county just the county government) pays $90 million per year to imprision illegal aliens who commit violent crimes.

	05-04-2005 15:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Oh, shut up. People are welcome here and all we ask is that they go through the legal process. It's not very hard nor is it very expensive but it is entirely unacceptable to let criminal law breaker just do what ever they want dispite the law. I realize that Republican bastards have done everything they can to prevent the enforcement of the law because individual business owners have benifeted from paying below mininium wage to illegal aliens but we still need to enforce our laws or they mean nothing. We need to enforce them upon illegal aliens and we need to enforce them upon unethical businesses who use illegal laborers in order to goose their profit margins.

Exactly. Go through the legal processes.

	05-04-2005 15:48									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin CNN had a special on that tonight and it was proven to b e a myth. The truth is most illegals work under the table in a cash economy which doesn't pay taxes.

Some work under the table and some, as Sik mentioned, make use of forged SS cards. Not all pay taxes, but those that go this route pay more than you would.

	05-04-2005 16:04									#112
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See? Not all immigrant workers are truly "exploited" as some may seem. Those that are 'legit' pay their a** in taxes, but at the same time, there are a heck of a lot more that get around the taxes deal.

My whole thing is that I don't agree with the Minuteman Militia thing. There's gotta be a waaaaaay better thing than this. I honestly don't have an idea what, but there's something.

Also, I don't think that illegal citizens should be afforded the same rights as regular citizens....because, what good is being a citizen if an illegal alien possesses the same rights as an illegal alien? There should be some kind of buffer system in place.

	05-04-2005 16:10									#113
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quote: It's not very hard nor is it very expensive

You've obviously never been on the other side of American immigration law, the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get a tourist or a fiance visa, let alone a green card are ridiculous.

	05-04-2005 19:04									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's not very hard nor is it very expensive but it is entirely unacceptable to let criminal law breaker just do what ever they want dispite the law.

I heard that these minutemen are going to start patroling the streets of our cities and reporting all law breaking activity to police like littering and jay walking. They want to prove that they aren't racist or even anti-immigration. They just hate law breakers.

	05-04-2005 19:09									#115
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quote: yes it's the name of an intercontinental ballistic missile. A nuke. But the name of the nuke of course took its name from militia during the revolutionary war.

they should have copyrighted the name back then, so that idiotic nationalist/patriotists couldnt use it....

same with the patriot missile system so that every 'right-wing' lunatic cant use it any more in there speeches

	05-04-2005 19:21									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko You've obviously never been on the other side of American immigration law, the amount of hoops you have to jump through to get a tourist or a fiance visa, let alone a green card are ridiculous.

...yet the President tacitly encourages illegal immigration. Just goes to show you that our leaders appreciate the unlimited cheap labor far more than they do the tourist dollars.

	05-04-2005 19:38									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff ...yet the President tacitly encourages illegal immigration. Just goes to show you that our leaders appreciate the unlimited cheap labor far more than they do the tourist dollars.

And the amount of money that the US is losing by being much more restrictive in handing out student visas than other English-speaking countries is insane.

	05-04-2005 21:54									#118
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The problem with "illegal" aliens is that they are illegal. We need to fix our immigration policies to allow people to come to the US to work and make money and potentially become citizens. I have no idea what people who want to restict immigration/guest workers want to achieve.

That said, immigration does put pressure on social services. The Feds should help states that have problems in this regard.

	05-04-2005 22:09									#119
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the federal government shouldnt be a nanny for 5-10 states that dont protect their border

	05-04-2005 22:10									#120
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http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/metro/68940.php

The minute men have gotten a response from the federal government(troops on the border,etc) and there has been a massive drop in illegal immigration in the areas that they are monitoring. Next time they just need to get the correct federal government to do it.