05-04-2005 22:16									#121
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 the federal government shouldnt be a nanny for 5-10 states that dont protect their border

States have no role in protecting their borders. If they did, I would agree with you.

	05-04-2005 22:20									#122
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they should since i bet its the states that are burdened by and large by illegal immigration, not the nation as a whole.

	05-04-2005 22:25									#123
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Mrt, you are correct on the burden. But the states cannot do anything about the border situation or the burden on social services except complain. California actually sued once upon a time. They were turned down by the courts. Schwarzenegger has been lobbying for help. So far, nothing.

	05-04-2005 22:27									#124
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this is why i hate the federal government. I mean im no jeffersonian by any means but really, the time has come for states to take back what is theirs, and make decisions on the local level. this is where there is the most opportunity for change, that benefits a community.

	05-04-2005 22:31									#125
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Well, there have been conflicts between the Feds and the states before. It resulted in our Civil War.

	05-04-2005 22:34									#126
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yeah, i still say the feds were wrong to quell it. especially looking at the moralistic intentions of many a southern christian.

	05-04-2005 22:47									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have no idea what people who want to restict immigration/guest workers want to achieve.

As I said before, keeping them illegal makes sure they won't ask for higher wages out of fear of being sent back to Mexico, it's all about corporate greed.

	05-04-2005 22:50									#128
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or its protectionist in that they dont want raul and manuel taking bobby and joey's job at the jack in the crack

	05-04-2005 22:50									#129
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 they should since i bet its the states that are burdened by and large by illegal immigration, not the nation as a whole.

It's the Federal government's job to protect the borders. The states are prohibbited from doing so.

	05-04-2005 22:55									#130
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 or its protectionist in that they dont want raul and manuel taking bobby and joey's job at the jack in the crack

Illegals usually takes jobs no-one else wants, like picking vegetables. You wouldn't do too well at a gas station if you can't speak English.

	05-04-2005 23:01									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko And the amount of money that the US is losing by being much more restrictive in handing out student visas than other English-speaking countries is insane.

I have to agree. But Asian students don't have trillions of dollars in American businesses paying politicians to change the law in their favor. Politicians are bribed (er.. I mean they get "contributions" ) by businesses to keep the flow of cheap illegal aliens flowing.

	05-04-2005 23:02									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Illegals usually takes jobs no-one else wants, like picking vegetables. You wouldn't do too well at a gas station if you can't speak English.

exactly, but the protectionist reasoning is people, americans will take those jobs. and at this point i might.

	05-04-2005 23:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Illegals usually takes jobs no-one else wants, like picking vegetables. You wouldn't do too well at a gas station if you can't speak English.

A few years back businesses week had a special on the effects of illegal immigration. Most of the jobs illegals now do used to be done by citizens in the recent past. Up until the early 1980's most meat packing jobs were union jobs and as such they were highly sought after. Reagan changed several pro-union laws into anti-union laws and the result was in just over a decade 80%-90% of the meat packing jobs were filled with nonunion labor much of it (many say most of it) illegal. Wages went from $15 (in 1980 dollars mind you) with benifets to $7 without benifets (2002 or 2003 dollars). The fall in wages likely wouldn't have happened unless the meat companies hadn't begun a policy of knowingly encouraging illegal workers to come fill those jobs. The bottom line is citizens would fill these jobs but they'd demand more money to do it.

Naturally, businesses want to pay as little as possible which is fine but they should be forced to obey the law with reguard to their hiring practices. Companies which break the law and are convicted of knowingly hiring illegals currently must pay a fine of $1000. They make more then that in a couple of hours by hiring illegals at depressed wages so it is cheaper to hire illegals and just pay the occational fine.

	05-04-2005 23:12									#134
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Excellent post, Oerdin.

	05-04-2005 23:16									#135
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Reagan killing unions:

	05-04-2005 23:16									#136
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Reagan

	06-04-2005 00:07									#137
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Reagan

	06-04-2005 00:17									#138
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Reagan

though I admit I liked him at the time. But I also liked Madonna back then. It's okay to like stupid things when you are young.

On the surface he was a great president. But when you hear about some of the lesser known things he has done.

	06-04-2005 01:27									#139
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He was very anti-union and that is for sure. A country needs a balance between labor and management because if one side becomes to strong then society suffers. To much labor control and businesses die; to much management control and people live like serfs.

	06-04-2005 01:32									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin He was very anti-union and that is for sure. A country needs a balance between labor and management because if one side becomes to strong then society suffers. To much labor control and businesses die; to much management control and people live like serfs.

We're on an agreement streak today, Oerdin.

	06-04-2005 02:35									#141
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Oerdin, et al., who view Mexican immigrants in terms of union busting, why does the Democrat Party support illegal immigration?

	06-04-2005 02:38									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, et al., who view Mexican immigrants in terms of union busting, why does the Democrat Party support illegal immigration?

because it's not PC to be against it.

	06-04-2005 02:48									#143
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Does this force the pro-American worker types into the Independent Party who have a hard line against illegal immigration?

	06-04-2005 02:57									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, et al., who view Mexican immigrants in terms of union busting, why does the Democrat Party support illegal immigration?

Simple. They want Latino votes the same as Republicans. Politicians are whores for votes and there isn't a nob they won't polish if there are enough votes in it. The goal should be to end illegal immigration and move everyone into the legal path so that the government knows who is entering the country and what they're moving through our borders. That's just a matter of national security.

We need to fine businesses which use illegal labor to death so that we can make an example out of them and we need to at least triple the amount of Border Patrol and other law enforcement at the borders in order to prevent the illegal activity. We then need to redouble our efforts into streamlining the legal immigration system so that people can be processed quickly and easily once it is determined they fit the legal guidelines.

Lastly every thing needs to change to make it easier to track down and catch illegal aliens. No more free government services for them (in order to encourage them to become legal immigraints instead of staying illegal), national ID cards are needed which clearly say a persons legal status and the date they're legal till, and the laws need to change to support national security. Currently a police officer can't ask a person if they are here illegally nor can a teacher. That's just insane. Every part of the government should be in the business of supporting the law.

	06-04-2005 02:57									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff We're on an agreement streak today, Oerdin.

	06-04-2005 03:08									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Heard of the MS-13s?

Mara-savuchra or something like that..no I didnt googlize or even finish reading the whole thread, just sharing we have them here in Eastern North Carolina my son is on our Sheriff's Office SWAT and Warrant Squad and they are showing up quicker than people can adjust to..

I heard of them first while preparing to do Missions work for my Lord in Honduras where they took action against police depatments whom targeted their operations

Gangs of New York or Gangs of El Salvador-Honduras and Mexico

Extorting their own people

Mafioso=Italian immigrants

China has the Triad

Gramps

	06-04-2005 03:14									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Reagan though I admit I liked him at the time. But I also liked Madonna back then. It's okay to like stupid things when you are young. On the surface he was a great president. But when you hear about some of the lesser known things he has done.

Yay Dissident!

Raygun was teh Evil.

	06-04-2005 03:17									#148
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Oh and as for the minteman deal..I think its opening a Pandora box

Like mentioned earlier in the thread, the govt loves collecting the taxes and have illegal immigrants do jobs some native Americans wont

However This will, in my opinion allow the govt to come back and say either

1) the minuteman program was wrong now we need more money to properly train additional forces

or

2) it good but it dont go far enough

remember William Bennet, the Drug Czar?

President Bush wanted to have a great announcement and in an interview in the Washington D C Paper, the police tried to get a dealer to deal drugs on the front of the White House on Pennsylvannia Avenue, but the dealer they chose well, he told the undercover cop he didnt know where no white house was and finally had to be picked up dropped off and then the whole deal came undone..all to prove how evil drugs are and why the taxpayers needed to fund this new program Bennet was heading up

I say that the minutemen program may have good roots but this will turn into a vigilante service, even on a small scale and thats not correct.

just my $0.02 worth

Gramps

	06-04-2005 03:34									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Does this force the pro-American worker types into the Independent Party who have a hard line against illegal immigration?

Sometimes, hence the large amount of support garnered by Perot in 1992. It also often results in voter apathy.

	06-04-2005 03:40									#150
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quote: The goal should be to end illegal immigration

Open borders!

quote: He was very anti-union and that is for sure.

If he wasn't, we'd have unions which would be way too powerful (think MLBPA or Teachers' Unions, but in most workplaces).