20-05-2005 18:14									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I'll be the last to be overly optimistic and I agree with Sir Ralph that it remains to be seen how much we can expect from this source code, but source code it definitely is.

My standpoint is still that to achieve binary modability the release of the source code is not a necessity.

There are 2 possible approaches.

Approach 1 allows a DLL with additional code, which extends the AI. If this DLL exists, it will be called by the game AI on defined events and overrides the standard AI behavior. This approach does not need the AI source code, but merely a set of headers, documentations and maybe examples and an import library for the game DLLs. The source code to be compiled and linked against the (possibly existing) game library you would have to provide yourself. This would be like modding by scripting (reacting to events), only in binary form. This approach was my favored interpretation until the second link was posted.

Approach 2 provides a DLL which replaces the game AI. This approach would need the source code of the game AI to be released. However I still can not believe that it will be realized. It would mean they give the user the opportunity to screw the whole game, while it still holds their name.

Extension or replacement? Only time will show.

	20-05-2005 18:25									#242
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I dont wanna lazy workers! I want cities rioting and doing nothing! In late game, if a worker does nothing has no impact, but a couple of cities rioting...

	20-05-2005 18:33									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It would mean they give the user the opportunity to screw the whole game, while it still holds their name. Extension or replacement? Only time will show.

I can make a mod with nuddie pictures as resources and still say its CIV III.

So, your point is irrelevant!!!! Irrelevaaaaaaant!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

	20-05-2005 19:05									#244
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It certainly looks like Firaxis have listened to the fans (but then they always did that IMO).

Some points:

Soren mentioned a server that (as I understand it) will allow MP games to be saved and continued. If correct thats great.

Are there any indications about interdiction of trade? IMO that was a big loss in civ3. Micromanaging caravans was a pain but it gave meaning to navies.

	20-05-2005 19:42									#245
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Most probably, the SDK will be something like what Valve did with Half-Life and Half-Life 2. That is, the engine code is not released, but the entire code to the game itself, including all game systems and AI, is released. In that case, the game essentially consists of an exe file that is the engine and calls the DLL for all game-related functions. But you can compile an entirely different DLL and create a different game (there have been racing games built on the Half-Life engine with the SDK).

The main reason I don't believe Firaxis will be releasing the full source code is the Gamebryo engine, which is also used for Pirates. It's a somewhat new engine, and it does not seem plausible to me right now that someone would give away the code to a new engine. Granted, Gamebryo is not the Source Engine or Unreal Engine3, but still...

	20-05-2005 20:08									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Solver The main reason I don't believe Firaxis will be releasing the full source code is the Gamebryo engine, which is also used for Pirates. It's a somewhat new engine, and it does not seem plausible to me right now that someone would give away the code to a new engine. Granted, Gamebryo is not the Source Engine or Unreal Engine3, but still...

And more importantly, Firaxis doesn't own it...

	20-05-2005 20:44									#247
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The 3D engine has nothing to do with source code. The 'engine' is a set of libraries.

But if you mean about the grahics, man, i bet because the graphics and music the game is being delayed, otherwise it would be gold now.

Oops, i forgot: "and thats why they will never release the graphics in 3D Studio or whatever program they are using, it is a lot of work and money invested in artists."

Last edited by GAZ082 on 20-05-2005 at 20:49

	20-05-2005 20:58									#248
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quote: The 3D engine has nothing to do with source code. The 'engine' is a set of libraries.

What, so the engine does not have source code to it? The FULL source code for a game is engine, game systems, AI and whatnot. The engine we're obviously not getting.

	20-05-2005 21:10									#249
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Aye, the 'engine' has source code, because it has been programmed. Now i got it, and i bet that Firaxis will never release the source code of it because a single reason:

If they have the choice of releasing it, it is because they actually bought the source code, and doing that is DAMN EXPENSIVE. DAAAAAAAMN expensive. So i bet they will not be glad to release the engine code.

	20-05-2005 21:54									#250
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Are there any indications about interdiction of trade? IMO that was a big loss in civ3. Micromanaging caravans was a pain but it gave meaning to navies.

There will be "automatic trade routes" once you broker a deal. The statement can be interpreted as if a route is physically present on the map, and can be interrupted by hostile action (as in CtP).

However, it can also be interpreted as a way of saying "trade will be like in Civ3, but there'll be stuuf you can trade"

	20-05-2005 22:55									#251
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quote: Originally posted by vovan Fascism (I think??) - Enables Police State - Can Construct Mt. Rushmore

Mt Rushmore is fascism?

	20-05-2005 22:57									#252
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I know... Weird, huh?

	20-05-2005 22:58									#253
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It is very "nationalistic", no?

	20-05-2005 23:02									#254
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quote: Men, that means 'source code'. In Python you cannot make dlls coz is an interpretative language (like BASIC) and you cannot compile a sh1t, no DLLs, no EXE no nothing! You need Python or a program that understands Python, having a kind of embebbed Python interpreter in CIV.

If I'm not mistaken, you can compile Python too, though it was not the way it was intended to work.

	20-05-2005 23:04									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu They get about a million un-PC points for including real-world religions, though. Oh, the debates in ol' Civ3 List Religion thread...

What´s so controversial about including real world religions? This crap about leaving out terrorism is so pc it makes me wanna vomit. You can become a fascist dictatorship and nuke the hell outta everyone, but you can´t poison their water supply or blow up goverment buildings to cause panic and general mayhem?

Damn hypocrits

	20-05-2005 23:08									#256
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Python can definitely be compiled, but I have never heard it compiling DLLs - or pure EXEs for that matter.

	20-05-2005 23:12									#257
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I like most of the info, but I dislike the info given about civics:

quote: "In the labor area, for instance, you can choose to allow slavery in your empire. This means that you'll be able to sacrifice population to hasten the completion of improvements. If you make the jump to serfdom, you'll have to pay to hurry improvements but you'll find that mines are much easier to make. The emancipation option under labor doesn't give you any specific benefits but it adds to the general unhappiness all other unemancipated civs suffer."

If that's all what those civics option will affect, I'm gonna be disappointed. They could do much more with them. For instance, SMAC Social Engineering affected a whole bunch of things, such as your industry, population growth, research, unit morale... Those could perfectly fit for the mentioned civics options. For example, slavery could perhaps give a production bonus, while something like freedom of speech or emancipation could give a research and culture bonus.

	20-05-2005 23:26									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There will be "automatic trade routes" once you broker a deal. The statement can be interpreted as if a route is physically present on the map, and can be interrupted by hostile action (as in CtP). However, it can also be interpreted as a way of saying "trade will be like in Civ3, but there'll be stuuf you can trade"

In other words, nobody knows.

The trade interdiction in CtP wasnt great but at least it was better than nothing.

I spotted a this on gamespy

"The multiplayer game is being reworked to support what Smith calls "Pit Boss" mode, whereby a separate server tracks your turns. You can hop on for a live session and then carry it over to a play-by-e-mail game based on your and your opponent's schedules. "

I dont know how many others asked for this but I sure agitated for it.

	20-05-2005 23:40									#259
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There are 'compilers' that make exes with python. But remember, Python is slow and useless for programming high performance apps like Games. Of course you can programme CIV IV in python, but heck, you will need a P4 and 1gb of ram to run it.

But 'natively', compilation aint supported, you need 3º party programs for compiling Python.

	20-05-2005 23:45									#260
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH "The multiplayer game is being reworked to support what Smith calls "Pit Boss" mode, whereby a separate server tracks your turns. You can hop on for a live session and then carry it over to a play-by-e-mail game based on your and your opponent's schedules. " I dont know how many others asked for this but I sure agitated for it.

This is perfect. When starting a PBEM, it so slow going in the beginning -- easy for people to lose interest. Much better to start a MP game up to 1000 to 1500 BC and switch to PBEM mode. Very, very cool.

I didn't agitate for it, but I want it!

	20-05-2005 23:53									#261
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It's also great for two-person duel PBEMs - if both happen to be online at the same time, they can switch to MP for some time and play . Very good news, and it sounds like it could indeed improve the PBEM community significantly .

	21-05-2005 00:17									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac If that's all what those civics option will affect, I'm gonna be disappointed. They could do much more with them. For instance, SMAC Social Engineering affected a whole bunch of things, such as your industry, population growth, research, unit morale... Those could perfectly fit for the mentioned civics options. For example, slavery could perhaps give a production bonus, while something like freedom of speech or emancipation could give a research and culture bonus.

I don't understand your disappointment. These bonuses are probably not number-munching like they were in SMAC (actually, I expect most civic effects will be number-munching, and that they advertized the spiffiest), but they are valid bonuses nonetheless. I mean, the choice between pop-rushing and cash-rushing projects is a big strategic difference. Creating unhappiness among your neighbours can considerably weaken their economy (unhappy workers stop working)

So, in short, each Civics looks like it can strongly affect the game. In my opinion, it is what really matters

	21-05-2005 00:46									#263
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With as many possible combo settings as Civ IV is listing, I wouldn't be surprized if in some settings you could both pop rush and cash rush, with the efficency in both determined by your settings. And so could the unhappiness penalty from pop rushing.

It's also fairly obvious that some settings should allow faster normal production than others, some settings should allow MP (and more efficent MP) than others, some settings should affect the size of your economy, etc.

	21-05-2005 01:09									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Mt Rushmore is fascism?

According to wikipedia.org here are the definitions of fascism:

-exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual

-uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition

-engages in severe economic and social regimentation

-engages in corporatism

-implements totalitarianism


I think it would be almost fitting using those defintions to label the US the Fascist Republic of Democracy and thus, use Mt. Rushmore as a symbol of fascism.

I suppose it is a bit of a reach but under generalities it could be applicable...

	21-05-2005 01:09									#265
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn With as many possible combo settings as Civ IV is listing, I wouldn't be surprized if in some settings you could both pop rush and cash rush, with the efficency in both determined by your settings.

I imagine the two might be mutually exclusive, but it'd be cool if we could do both. Seems like too much of an advantage though...

	21-05-2005 01:33									#266
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Or maybe it could be a forced combo pop - cash rush when you want to rush something. Such as maybe for one setting it costs 100 MC AND 2 pop points for a 100 shield rush.

With the different settings determining the ratio of cash too pop.

quote: Originally posted by vovan I imagine the two might be mutually exclusive, but it'd be cool if we could do both. Seems like too much of an advantage though...

	21-05-2005 01:36									#267
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Actually, I think the pop-rush vs. cash-rush decision is settled as an either/or, and that you decide the form you want by picking the Labor setting that you prefer.

	21-05-2005 01:48									#268
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About trade: I think you can trade all resources like you could trade the lux resources in cIIIv.

Thus whales, fishes, wheat, etc. etc.
Like you can trade whine, gems, iron, etc. in cIIIv.
And those resources have an impact on your cities. ie more whine is more happyness in your cities. More wheat is more food in your cities. Whales is more health in your cities.

Thus about 40 goods to trade with other civs which results in much broader trade system.

	21-05-2005 01:51									#269
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Such as maybe for one setting it costs 100 MC AND 2 pop points for a 100 shield rush.

Speaking of which, they are apparently not called shields any more, but hammers.

	21-05-2005 01:57									#270
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quote: Originally posted by vovan Speaking of which, they are apparently not called shields any more, but hammers.

Good! I always thought "shields" was a stupid name for production. A shield is a defensive weapon, it has nothing to do with building stuff. How is a shield a measure of how fast you are building something? "Hammer" is much better because hammers are used to build stuff so it makes sense.