20-05-2005 04:30									#211
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Ive checked the 13 min video... i wonder if the AI will make cool promotion combos or just the same every other game.

aha, now you've touched on a very important subject: if the AI is not able to make interesting promotion combos, then the whole system is just... sort of ruined.

	20-05-2005 04:35									#212
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If they can't make intelligent combos it should at the very least be a bit random, not like the 4 end techs in RoN where the AI always picks the same tech as #1 tech

	20-05-2005 05:12									#213
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I kinda have the impression that unit stacking is out. I hope I am wrong.

You can definitely stack units. Not sure what it looks like on the map though...

PC Lamer feature article mentions that artillery now "damages every unit in a stack". And the ign thing quoted above mentions "more intelligent stacked movement".

	20-05-2005 05:22									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Alex aha, now you've touched on a very important subject: if the AI is not able to make interesting promotion combos, then the whole system is just... sort of ruined.

I disagree.

In SMAC, the AI couldn't take advantage of most of the complex mechanics (including the dear social engineering). Even if the CIV AI doesn't take advantage of the promotions, it will still be an interesting mechanic that will be dear to the players IMO.

Besides, the fanbase will get to tweak the AI. It is likely that after some time, we see AI mods where the AI is significantly beefed up. It has worked for CtP2, so I think it'll work for CIV, where the fanbase will be much bigger.

	20-05-2005 05:47									#215
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You know, I still say that The Manhattan Project is far more unbalancing as a World Wonder than as a National Wonder. Lets face it, if you are soooo far ahead that you can build TMP 'unopposed', then you have the game pretty well sewn up already-and I am hoping that the late-game will be shaken up in a way as to make things far less 'cut and dried'. Also, though, why should my enemies and allies alike benefit from all of MY hard work and investment? In fact, why should I build TMP at all-I should just sit back and wait for some other poor sucker to build it!!! By making TMP a national wonder which benefits-at most-you and your allies, you not only make every nation work hard for its nuclear capability, you also make alliances much more important!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	20-05-2005 06:21									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus SDK is probably the most abused term in the history of computer gaming, I've seen it being used to refer to anything from a scenario editor right down to the full source code. If Soren explains it as "basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL", then he *is* referring to the actual source code. Not the full game, I'm sure: the graphics engine and network code and stuff like that probably won't be included (Gamebryo is a licensed product so Firaxis couldn't release that code if they wanted to), but as long as Firaxis keeps supporting the game (as opposed to what Activision did) that's not the sort of code fans will want to change anyway. But IF the entire core of the game itself is exposed (big if, but that *is* what it sounds like), the possibilities are literally endless...

Want to bet money on it?

An SDK is an SDK. Source code is source code. The difference between both is clear cut.

The Windows SDK can be used to compile own applications (well, or DLLs if you wish so), which run under Windows. Same with the SDKs of countless other GUIs in present and past. Neither of these SDKs contains a single line of source code short of maybe some examples for function usage. The Civ4 SDK (still refuse to call it CIV, this name has yet to be earned) will make it possible to write your own DLL and call functions of the game engine. Call them. Not modify them. This will be enough to mod the game.

I understand your wishful thinking, but don't put your expectations too high. You will be disappointed.

	20-05-2005 06:32									#217
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I'm optimistic

	20-05-2005 06:34									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Can you compile those into a DLL, as Soren specifically said?

1 - No you can't. Headers contain only prototypes and declarations.

2 - Soren didn't say they can be compiled. He said they can be used to compile your own DLL. That's a difference. I use a library (= binary) file (for instance the MSC library) to compile my own programs. I don't need to compile the library itself, so its source code is not necessary. And as said above, I don't need the source code of Windows to compile a program that runs under Windows either.

	20-05-2005 07:30									#219
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Ohhh, i can see my Imperial Guard with a bonus in city fights or my Imperial Border Police keeping the AI out of my territory with a bonus in senty and perhaps a ZOC ability (if it does exist).

	20-05-2005 07:41									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph An SDK is an SDK. Source code is source code. The difference between both is clear cut.

In the real world of software development? Yes, of course. Any programmer, including yours truly, is intimitely familiar with them. In the gaming industry? No way.

As I've said, I've seen it being used to refer to anything from litterally a map editor (in some obscure RTS game, don't remember the name) to the full source code of a game. In Freelancer for example, the SDK is a large collection of INI files. Again, it is the single worst butchered and abused term in the gaming industry. If someone uses the word SDK in relation to a game, you have to listen to the context to figure out what he means, the word itself is utterly meaningless.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph 1 - No you can't. Headers contain only prototypes and declarations.

Exactly.

quote: 2 - Soren didn't say they can be compiled. He said they can be used to compile your own DLL.

Soren also said "basically the game and the AI code" -- so that's actual code, not headers. If he meant headers he would've said headers. Soren is one person who will know the difference...

	20-05-2005 07:50									#221
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 ... or my Imperial Border Police keeping the AI out of my territory with a bonus in senty and perhaps a ZOC ability (if it does exist).

You don't need to do that. Borders aren't violated in C4, so surround your opponents with culture ... and don't BECOME surrounded!

	20-05-2005 07:54									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I disagree. In SMAC, the AI couldn't take advantage of most of the complex mechanics (including the dear social engineering). Even if the CIV AI doesn't take advantage of the promotions, it will still be an interesting mechanic that will be dear to the players IMO. Besides, the fanbase will get to tweak the AI. It is likely that after some time, we see AI mods where the AI is significantly beefed up. It has worked for CtP2, so I think it'll work for CIV, where the fanbase will be much bigger.

Well... 3 years of developing is a lot of time to tweak things like this. If i have to modify and invest time i dont have in tweaking the AI (or wait for someone to do it), someone has been 'testing' too much the game and spent very little time doing his job, this is, programming the AI.

If they implement neat features, the AI has to cope with them and actually teach the gamer how to use them in the first games. And then, when the gamer surpases the AI, the AI will have to adapt and create new special units to fight my Imperial Guard or similar unit with nice combos of promotions.

I wonder if i can name the units... Now with the abilities, you can actually make Alpine Troopers, Imperial Guard, Marines, Siege Engineers Corp, etc. etc. Let me imagine more and please tell me that you can borrow troops to an ally ala Paradox's Victoria...

	20-05-2005 08:32									#223
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Has anyone else thought of this or found an answer to the following?

Some civs have 2 leaders. If I chose to play as France, I chose from Napoleon or Louis XIV, I get that part.

But what about the AI civs? Does the AI chose randomly from the 2 leaders, or is it chosen by the player before the game?

If you can chose or chose a random setting, i figure that would be cool. But if it was a decidedly randomly generated choice, I think that could develop into some boring games if you get alot of peaceful leaders.

	20-05-2005 08:46									#224
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Ninot, a related question is "Can I Change leaders in mid-game?" !!

--
What is this stuff about promotion "choices"? If my Legion makes a successful assault in a forest or city, should that enable amphibious assaults? Of course not. It should be related to the involved combat and perhaps be randomly selected, maybe giving extra weight to previous promotions received if they relate to the combat.

Last edited by Jaybe on 20-05-2005 at 08:53

	20-05-2005 09:18									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Ninot, a related question is "Can I Change leaders in mid-game?" !!

I would guess not simply for the fact that it would make it too easy to make sure your leader is pleased then, unless theres a penalty, in which case what is the point?

	20-05-2005 12:32									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Soren also said "basically the game and the AI code" -- so that's actual code, not headers. If he meant headers he would've said headers. Soren is one person who will know the difference...

Yes. A static library or DLL also contains code. Binary one. If he had meant the source code, he would have said source code and not used some obscure paraphrase.

	20-05-2005 13:07									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Yes. A static library or DLL also contains code. Binary one. If he had meant the source code, he would have said source code and not used some obscure paraphrase.

Jeez, with all due respect, but learn English...

"the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL"

Binairy code is already compiled.

The 'using to compile' part refers to the code, not to the SDK as you suggested before. Soren is talking about code that can be used to compiled. Noone ever refers to a compiled DLL as code when the binary itself is not topic of discussion. A DLL is a binary, that which creates it is code. The code Soren mentions is source code, not binary code. That's not obscure at all, it's crystal clear... To specifically say source code would be redundant and even confusing: when one speaks of releasing the source code of a game, one ususally means the code of the entire game, as is sometimes done with legacy games like CtP2, Doom, Quake, Descent 2, etc. That's not the case here, only a small part of the code is released -- but the most important part (or at least we can hope so, it's of course entirely possible for them to screw it up and leave out a lot of important stuff).

	20-05-2005 13:55									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Jeez, with all due respect, but learn English...

Please abstain from comments like this. They don't make you right.

quote: "the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL" Binairy code is already compiled. The 'using to compile' part refers to the code, not to the SDK as you suggested before. Soren is talking about code that can be used to compiled. Noone ever refers to a compiled DLL as code when the binary itself is not topic of discussion.

Sorry, but this statement does not make sense.

Clearly stated is, that you won't be able to write a game executable, but merely a run time library. That's what a DLL is. Functions in this library will be called by the running application (compiled by Firaxis) on defined events to override standard AI behavior. Just like your Ctp2-modding, only that here it's not only a script (which is also included in form of Python), but compiled code, which makes it faster, more versatile and better apt for resource-heavy modding (which AI is).

In order to do this, you don't need any game source code. All you need definitions and declarations in form of a couple of header files. Did you need the Ctp2 source code, before it was released, in order to use your scripts? No, and same here.

Your function names will be predefined, because DLL functions are usually called by name. The data structures and arrays will have to be defined. Prototypes of functions, which you can call back to gather additional data will be defined. If Firaxis is nice (and I reckon they will be), they may include some detailed documentation and examples. May be an import library (although I doubt even that). That's all.

quote: A DLL is a binary, that which creates it is code. The code Soren mentions is source code, not binary code. That's not obscure at all, it's crystal clear...

Not only not "crystal clear", but a bold assertion.

quote: To specifically say source code would be redundant and even confusing: when one speaks of releasing the source code of a game, one ususally means the code of the entire game, as is sometimes done with legacy games like CtP2, Doom, Quake, Descent 2, etc. That's not the case here, only a small part of the code is released -- but the most important part (or at least we can hope so, it's of course entirely possible for them to screw it up and leave out a lot of important stuff).

Here you try to interpret every word said or even not said (like "source"). In your last post you imply, that Soren knows exactly what he says. A few posts above you state, the word SDK is one of the most abused words in the gaming industry and it may be used wrong in this case. Mind you, it was also used by Soren. Now what is it? Is it exact and to be interpreted by the word, or not?

I don't know what will be released. Neither do you. That is a fact.

I'm trying to explain you (sad that I have to, since you declared yourself a professional), that the described goal of modability can be achieved without having access to source code. You write a DLL. They call it.

If it is not necessary to release the source code of a brand new game, no company will do it. And in this case, it is not necessary.

As for your examples: In Ctp2 the source code was released long after the game was abandonned. In the other cases you mentioned, the source code was released no to achieve modability, but portability, as they are multiplatform games.

	20-05-2005 15:48									#229
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A preview has been posted on Gamespy: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/civilization-iv/617487p1.html

Maybe this will convince Sir Ralph:

quote: The new mod tools are laying Civilization bare. As with some of the previous games, a lot of the data is easily changed from a text file. But now Firaxis is using Python (an accessible scripting language) to do everything from the interface to random map algorithms. They'll even be releasing the source code. "It's way beyond anything we've ever done before," he says.

Other new stuff:

- The multiplayer game is being reworked to support what Smith calls "Pit Boss" mode, whereby a separate server tracks your turns. You can hop on for a live session and then carry it over to a play-by-e-mail game based on your and your opponent's schedules.

- Firaxis is rebalancing the strategic resources by more carefully working them into the random map generation. They're also making them less restrictive. Gunpowder units no longer require saltpeter and Firaxis will probably give players a technology to synthesize oil.

- Factories will decrease health, while certain structures will improve it.

- Cities don't riot anymore, but unhappy workers simply stop working.

- you can cash in a Great Engineer to instantly finish a wonder.

- Or you can save up your Great People and trade them in groups for Golden Ages.

- each religion will offer a unique wonder

	20-05-2005 15:59									#230
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Nice preview. Question. It is mentioned that

quote: Cities don't riot anymore, but unhappy workers simply stop working.

Do we know much about this? Like suppose everyone in the city becomes unhappy, is there the possibility of losing the city? Also, what about happy workers? Do they work more efficiently than content workers? Or is there even such a thing as happy workers any more? And if so, won't we have the "We Love the King Day"?

	20-05-2005 16:14									#231
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quote: - Or you can save up your Great People and trade them in groups for Golden Ages. - each religion will offer a unique wonder

BTW, Locutus, on the SDK issue, I'd suggest to be a pessimist rather than an optimist (remember, excessive optimism is why Civ3 has been such a disappointment for many fans )

When Soren spoke about "basically the game and the AI code", he may well have aimed this comment to the layman, who doesn't know what an SDK is in the first place. This is especially likely given the context (E3), where Soren's full-time job is to show off the game to the general audience.

If Civ4 had been more of a niche game, where most players are fans and active members of the community, he would have probably weighted his words more carefully. But in a game with as broad an audience as Civ4, he may have felt inclined to say in a few simplistic words what an SDK is. The word "basically" reinforces me in thinking so.

In any case, I strongly suggest not to over-analyse what is probably a slip of the tongue. If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so. I expect the AI-programming tools to be powerful, but not to the point that you can turn Civ4 into Football Manager

	20-05-2005 16:15									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Maybe this will convince Sir Ralph:

Some additional and, what is more important, clearer information. What they mean by "source code" and how far they would go, remains to be seen, though.

	20-05-2005 16:21									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot But what about the AI civs? Does the AI chose randomly from the 2 leaders, or is it chosen by the player before the game?

I imagine you get to choose, and "random" is one of the options. Civs don't have specific bonuses or personalities anymore, leaders do. Bonus-wise and agenda-wise, the 26 leaders are "as if" there were 26 civs from Civ3, or "as if" there were 26 factions from SMAC.

In these games, we could pick our opponents. I think we'll get to pick our opponents in Civ4 as well (and if they don't implement it out of the box, you can be sure the fans will have their way so that it figures into a patch )

	20-05-2005 16:36									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so.

Oh, but they did. They already said that parts of the game are Python scripts, which means the code is yours to modify. Same thing with XML. The deeper modifications would be scripts that need to be precompiled to DLLs for faster execution. The thing we do not know is what exactly will be available, and what will remain hidden.

	20-05-2005 16:57									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If they were releasing the source code (or parts of the source code), they would have openly said so.

That's just the thing, he DID openly say so. What on earth else can 'game code' mean? Saying it's binary code is just bull -- you release binary code anyway, the entire game is binary code...

I'll be the last to be overly optimistic and I agree with Sir Ralph that it remains to be seen how much we can expect from this source code, but source code it definitely is. There's also such a thing as being overly pessimistic: saying that 'game code' must be binary code, because Firaxis would never actually do something the fans would like, is just as silly and paranoid as when Solver said a few months ago it was plausible that when Firaxis claimed they'd been playing 4+ hours of MP for over a year, that that could mean they had only done so once a year ago, and the output was entirely in ASCII art...

I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic -- I'm realistic. And it's realistic to conclude source code will be released based on what Soren said (and reinforced by GameSpy), but it's also realistic to be somewhat sceptical about what to expect from it. But they're not gonna just throw one token class at us just so they can say they released code, I think we can expect a fair bit...

	20-05-2005 17:23									#236
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Did Firaxis ever released the source code of one of its old games? Did 2k? If yes, then I believe you. But if not, then I would be cautious. So far, we only have the "on the fly" words of Soren and the words of an E3 journalist for that (it is very possible that the journalist is hyped and jumps to conclusions - if the interviewer of the Gamespot video is any indication )

What we know, because it has been repeted enough at various moments, is that there will be a map editor, that rules will be tweakable in XML, that scripts will be doable using python, and that there will be an SDK for the AI. It's fairly impressive already. If the SDK is powerful (and I think it will be), the game will be more moddable than any other Sid Meier game. But I really don't believe that Firaxis will reveal nearly as much source code as CtP2, based on their history of not doing so for older games.

	20-05-2005 17:31									#237
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Spiffor, you do not always have to compile things to consider them "source code".

The Python and XML parts already are "source code", as they are a part of the whole game engine. They do not seem like additions, but rather vital elements the game will require to run. Of course what we will get is not all there will be, but it still fits the definition.

Last edited by Modo44 on 20-05-2005 at 17:38

	20-05-2005 17:50									#238
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"the game/AI SDK, which is basically the game and the AI code that people can use to compile a seperate DLL"

Men, that means 'source code'. In Python you cannot make dlls coz is an interpretative language (like BASIC) and you cannot compile a sh1t, no DLLs, no EXE no nothing! You need Python or a program that understands Python, having a kind of embebbed Python interpreter in CIV.

To compile a DLL you need source code and a compiler, perhaps a C++ compiler, dont know. A DLL is a library of binary code that can be'called' from another program.

Soren is the AI guy, perhaps releasing the AI source code will be a nice way to customize it for medium or pro programmers and in that way, make us stop weeping before we start. We dont like how the AI handles promotions? Code an algorythm!

But releasing the full game source code? Mmm, dont think so. That costed lot of money and brainstorming.

	20-05-2005 18:01									#239
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Ahhhh, information overload-I THINK MY BRAIN IS GOING TO EXPLODE !!! Its so funny, every time I check my e-mail again, I find I have about a dozen or more new messages regarding civ4 ! I almost wish it was December NOW!!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	20-05-2005 18:07									#240
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I agree that it would be very surprising if they were to release the entire game's source code. Even if it were to be done under some very restrictive license, it would just be giving too much away.

I interpret Soren's comment as meaning that we'll get at least the core of the gamestate and AI C++ source code which we will then be able to tweak to our heart's content and compile into a DLL to link into the game at run time.