07-07-2005 18:43									#211
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Horrible, horrible news.

	07-07-2005 18:43									#212
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BTW, there were much larger than usual numbes of police and security at my local DC metro station this AM (several hours after the London attack)

	07-07-2005 18:46									#213
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45 feared dead and 1000 injured....according to sky news.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/...1188265,00.html

	07-07-2005 18:48									#214
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Godspeed to all those folks in London...

quote: Nothing to do with the olympics, no-one expected us to win. It's all about the G8.

Or the trial of Abu Hamza.

	07-07-2005 18:49									#215
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark BTW, there were much larger than usual numbes of police and security at my local DC metro station this AM (several hours after the London attack)

CNN was mentioning that in major cities, bomb sniffing dogs would be used just in case the terrorists planned a double dose of terrorism.

	07-07-2005 19:04									#216
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They still haven't confirmed the authenticity of the al-Qaeda claim for responsibility. Who else could it be, though? Does the IRA operate like this? Wouldn't they have made a statement by now?

	07-07-2005 19:05									#217
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Yes, they probably would have.
-
I initially suspected anarchists, anti-globalists, etc. But the facts seem to be pointing to militant islamists.

	07-07-2005 19:07									#218
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 They still haven't confirmed the authenticity of the al-Qaeda claim for responsibility. Who else could it be, though? Does the IRA operate like this? Wouldn't they have made a statement by now?

I dont think IRA has ever used suicide bombers, have they? Not that suicide bombers have been confirmed, but that would seem the most likely way to get a bomb on a bus, trains, etc. If you leave it in a bag or something, someone is likely to get suspicious - youd think folks in London are on alert for suspicious packages. And multiple bombings is an AQ trademark.

	07-07-2005 19:08									#219
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Scotland Yard has issued the following casualty hotline number 0870 1566 344 for anyone still worried about friends and relatives.

	07-07-2005 19:09									#220
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Churches are opening their doors to the 'walking wounded' .

And people are being told to not travel unless essential in central london at the momment.

I wonder what kind of warning they got for this, like if it was specific or just a generic "we are going to bomb you inx mins"?

lots of sirens going by earls court, but then there is a hospital near the exhibition centre. It will be a while before we know the full numbers i guess

	07-07-2005 19:09									#221
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Did any of the explosions go off on the trains or buses that service Clapham? My sister lives there and I haven't heard from her.

	07-07-2005 19:11									#222
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My prayers go out to the UK.

	07-07-2005 19:13									#223
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Does the IRA operate like this? Wouldn't they have made a statement by now?

The I.R.A. is still recovering from the public relations debacle of the Robert McCartney murder.

In the normal course of things they either would or would not have released a coded warning, either on time or not.

Their bombs in the 90s tended to be larger too- the 1996 Docklands Bomb was the one that blew in my bathroom windows from several miles away- luckily they were open slightly, so no broken glass, just a very surprised me taking a bath.

Then there was the Arndale Bomb in Manchester, and the bomb which devastated the City of London in 1993.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/...000/2539265.stm

	07-07-2005 19:15									#224
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I wonder what kind of warning they got for this, like if it was specific or just a generic "we are going to bomb you inx mins"?

Im not sure there was a warning - i saw somewhere a denial of the report that the Israelis got a warning from Scotland Yard. I think that was only a rumor.

	07-07-2005 19:15									#225
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Terrible news.

I found the CNN coverage horrible-they were spending more time talking about what Bush did after being told and how they told him, and other nonsense instead of actually talking about what happened. Had to turn to MSNBC to get some real news.

I think people are jumping on UR without merit. He posted two things- one, a joke (in poor taste), but if you look at the first half of the posts, the talk was of power outage. Then he rolleyed at a response, and that was it. Had he been joking AFTER it became clear it was a terrorist attack, that is excrable, but at that point? Come on.

I think it is extremely difficult if not impossible to defend large transportation systems like that of London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, NY, and so forth. You can;t put in airport like security, because it would stiffle and kill the systems. So if you don;t get info as these guys plan, I don;t know if it is possible to really catch them.

	07-07-2005 19:16									#226
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Yes, they probably would have. - I initially suspected anarchists, anti-globalists, etc. But the facts seem to be pointing to militant islamists.

Come on... anarchists and anti-globalists are relatively harmless, they'd never do something like this, nor do they have the means to organize that.

	07-07-2005 19:17									#227
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I dont think IRA has ever used suicide bombers, have they? Not that suicide bombers have been confirmed, but that would seem the most likely way to get a bomb on a bus, trains, etc. If you leave it in a bag or something, someone is likely to get suspicious - youd think folks in London are on alert for suspicious packages. And multiple bombings is an AQ trademark.

Yes i think that is most likely, no-one checks bags ever. which is weird since 911 i always thought . Or maybe stuck on the train itself, like underneath etc. Seeing how easy its been for undercover reporters to get jobs with the repair contracters on the underground(they were whistle blowing bad work practises etc) - that could have been a way in to plant a device? suicide bombing is the surest method though i stopped using the tube 6months ago because i felt it was a ripe target for a terrorist attack.

	07-07-2005 19:17									#228
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I can't imagine how any type of security would stop this kind of attack without cripeling a city's transportation system.

	07-07-2005 19:18									#229
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My sympathy.

I hope all our polytubbies are ok as well.

	07-07-2005 19:22									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I can't imagine how any type of security would stop this kind of attack without cripeling a city's transportation system.

You can't.

These systems are meant for the free transportation of millions daily. You simply can't accurately defend them, specially against suicide attacks.

That said, I have heard very little about these being suicide attacks. On the web CNN is saying this are more like the Madrid attacks, which were not suicide.

As for who did it: come on, this is quintessential AQ style multiple attacks.

	07-07-2005 19:22									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I can't imagine how any type of security would stop this kind of attack without cripeling a city's transportation system.

Y'all are correct that you cant do airport type security.

The Israelis have gotten pretty good at having bus drivers and ordinary passengers look for telltale signs of a suicide bomber, and have stopped some, but many blow up and kill anyway.

Best ways are 1. break up cells in country 2. Stop terrs from coming in, (if they came from abroad) 3. Stop global terrorist financing, communicating, and planning. 4. Kill and Capture the global network 5. Drain the swamp.

	07-07-2005 19:23									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Ninot I can't imagine how any type of security would stop this kind of attack without cripeling a city's transportation system.

Exactly. Given the numbers of people using the integrated rail/tube/bus network its simply not feasible.

Unless of course we're all given bar codes or computer chips.

Still, the I.R.A. didn't manage to stop London running in decades of campaigns. It took a power failure in old equipment to do that one winter's night in the 1990s.

	07-07-2005 19:24									#233
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You can't. These systems are meant for the free transportation of millions daily. You simply can't accurately defend them, specially against suicide attacks. That said, I have heard very little about these being suicide attacks. On the web CNN is saying this are more like the Madrid attacks, which were not suicide. As for who did it: come on, this is quintessential AQ style multiple attacks.

madrid somebody left the bombs in baggage, no? THAT it should be quite possible to stop. Assume all unattended items are bombs.

	07-07-2005 19:25									#234
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Oh I believe you GePap.

I can eaasily think of a place to drop a bag in the Montreal system with a 30 second fuse, and be at street level when the thing blows.

And there aren't any cameras or anything, so I wouldn't think if anyone tried it they'd be easily caught.

I'm just kinda glad Montreal's not a huge target, cuz i'm gonna be depending on that Metro alot.

	07-07-2005 19:28									#235
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Sympathies to London and its people.

Some limited security measures are possible.
Washington's Metro has air sniffers in the big downtown stations.

edit:
There are also signs in most every station urging passengers to inquire politely about any unattended packages.

	07-07-2005 19:29									#236
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Well, you can try to hide the bags, stuff them under seats to make them hard to notice. In the bustle of a morning ruch hour people are not bound to notice. Even worse, people have an perverse reason NOT to report anything- you report something, and the train might have to be stopped, people gotten off, the police has to come- you slow everything down, and if its likely not anything (because honestly, 95% of the time a bag left there would be justa mistake), so why bother?

Of course, the bombs could have been left or placed on the tracks, or to the side, but that would inidcate a huge level of planning an excecution, so I highly doubt it.

Also, train systems are far more vulnerable than buses. In a bus the driver sees everyone getting on. In a train a conductor is general has no clue, and no way to stop a fare-paying customer from getting on, since people pay entereing the station.

	07-07-2005 19:29									#237
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My sympathy goes to the citizens of London.

Now go and get these criminals!

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark madrid somebody left the bombs in baggage, no? THAT it should be quite possible to stop. Assume all unattended items are bombs.

Except that it's hard to tell in a train or bus, overfilled during rush hours, if an item is unattended or not.

	07-07-2005 19:31									#238
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom edit: Unless of course we're all given bar codes or computer chips. edit:

wait out on this one i would guess

	07-07-2005 19:36									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph My sympathy goes to the citizens of London. Now go and get these criminals! Except that it's hard to tell in a train or bus, overfilled during rush hours, if an item is unattended or not.

if this kind of attack were to become more common, youd A. expect people to carry/hold their bags - if you put it down, its unattended - tough luck and B. You put safety above being late.

IIUC thats the attitude in Israel, and people get used to it, and adjust their behavior with regard to packages, etc. Which is why they rarely ever have a terr act involving a left behind bombs, IIUC, and the terrs have focused on suicides.

	07-07-2005 19:40									#240
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These types of attacks will hardly become as common in the US and EU as attacks have been in Israel.

There have been two, separated by more than a year, and both were obviously very highly planned onese since we are talking about at least 4 bombs in either- a very ghih level of sophistication. That limits the number of attacks possible.

NOw, if it were lone attacks against systems, maybe, but we have yet to see such a thing.