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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
its all just an excuse for every authoritarian idiot in Western society to get his wet dream of order and rules and surveillance
complete overreaction and hysteria |
Yeah, I guess that every (right wing) politician get's a hardon every time that police prevents a possible suicide bomber to activate his bomb.
Considering that every left wing government without any bomb threats would consider such surveillance quite natural, I guess that you are i favour of it.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
As a veteran Northern Ireland Special Branch officer said - looks like they going to make every mistake we made |
Such as ? I can't remeber that the british police at that time was confronted with suicide bombers.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Sorry, but that's mad. Quite ordinary and respectable people panic when confronted by the police. It's an established fact and is down to our genes. The vast majority of people acting suspiciously are in fact quite innocent and don't even know that they are under suspicion. Many of them will panic and act irrationally if confronted by the police. It's just not good enough to expect them to act rationally.
I think the police overreacted in this situation due to their fear of terrorists. That's understandable to some extent, but nothing changes the fact that they f up royally and now this innocent man is dead, for nothing more than being non-white and inappropriately clothed.
Why is it that right wing people are so quick to excuse violence by the authorities? What's wrong with you all? |
There is nothing wrong with anyone -except maybe you. I don't think that anyone is pleased or find any kind of joy in what has happend, quite contratray.
Though, that doesn't change that most of us prefers that police tries to prevent a suicide bomber to trigger his bomb. That wasn't the case this time, but the person acted as a such, so things happend as they did.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Can my topic be... people... who cite articles about high speed chases in North America when discussing policing in a European city experiencing suicide bombings? |
You probably can do that, but how man of them is suspected as beoing suicide bombers and how many are killied because of that ?
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Oh, and the Rodney King lead in just adds loads to the seriousness that I should take your source with, doesn't it? |
Oh, yes, let us just draw criminal cops into this situation - what do you claim ? That those brutals was afraid of RK maybe would bring a bom to explotion in an subway ?
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
It's just that it has jack all to do with the situation in London. |
Oh, I may be have too harsh - I quite agree that american road patrols actions has nothing to do with what english police do.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
No but they had shoot to kill and other dirty war policies against the IRA which completely backfired in terms of innocent deaths, Bloody Sunday being the most famous incident. This gave support to the IRA and undermined the discipline of the RUC, thus giving a license to the protestant paramilitaries for far worse actions against the local Irish catholic community and in the UK by the IRA.
It all went horribly wrong, prolonging and entrenching the conflict. All because some idiot thought departing from the rule of law and "special" and "emergency" measures were necessary. Does any of this sound familiar?
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No, that certainly doesn't sound famliar, and the current incident has no familiarity with some undercover activities that may have happened in NI.
quote:
Here's a what an innocent civilian shot in the head by a British soldier looks like. |
An appropriate picture here would have been of one of those three subwaytrains that got demolished by bombs - unfortunatedly I don't have any pics to demonstrate what those policemens was afraid of could happen.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
As opposed to getting a hard on for shooting up innocent civilians in the name of security.  |
In your less than sound, let alone valid, words.
quote:
Both of you look like squawking chimps repeating the same crap over and over again, when it has been owned already. |
Yada, yada, yada...
quote:
It's a fact that innocent people panic when confronted by the police. The police are supposed to take precautions because of it. They acted like dumbasses in this case. They had no real evidence that this person was a threat, and no real evidence of any sort other than that he dressed funny, looked foreign and panicked when they waved guns at him. That's lots of people. Let's have it your way and shoot them all. |
Waiting for some ground for you to stand on other than an article that starts with a kid breaking the law and then fleeing from the police.
quote:
But you don't care as long as we are "secure". Great. I can't wait to be gunned down because I wear odd clothes and run from gun toting maniacs who are yelling at me. What if the guy had been deaf, for example? |
I doubt he would have run when yelled at?
quote:
Too bad, he should have had hearing. It's sad that he got shot in the head five times, but the police have to make snap decisions, and deaf people just have to pay the supreme penalty so that Tory bores can feel safe in their rancid bungalows.
You just love the idea of cops shooting people. |
As I said, frothing.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
You have to back up a bit kitten. Aggie posted a link to prove his 'fight or flight' theory that invoked RK as an argument against high speed chases in North America.
Just what that has or had to do with the situation in London, I am waiting for Aggie to describe. |
Owned...
The point is that fight or flight is a well documented stress response in which people behave irrationally. Being confronted by the police is a very stressful situation for most people (except for criminals who are used to it), and often provokes a fight or flight response. That's why soccer moms end up leading the police on wild car chases. The police have stopped engaging in such chases in most areas simply because it almost always leads to worse outcomes (collateral damage, etc.). This is because the awareness and judgement of both the person being chased, and to a lesser extent the officers is impaired by the stress response.
Police are now being trained to recognize when they are experiencing a stress response like "fight or flight" and how to deal with it effectively so that their judgement is not impaired. We don't have the time or resources to give every citizen the same training, so they aren't going to deal with the stress as well as the cops.
What's exactly the same in this case is that this resulted in all likelihood from Mr Menezes experiencing an acute stress response that impaired his judgement and caused him to run like hell. There's nothing abnormal about this. Just as people start car chases when cops yell at them, others run from the cops for little or no reason. If you've watched the TV show Cops, you've seen this hundreds of times. Dumb people always say "Why do they run when they only have an expired license or something minor?" The answer is because the stress response impairs their judgement.
Do you live in a cave? Have you never seen this and wondered whether there was a more rational explanation for their seemingly irrational behaviour?
Again, this is not abnormal. Decent law abiding people will act strangely and attempt to flee if confronted with such situations. This is a scientifically established fact – it's something the police know, and that these officers should have had in mind. Your whole argument falls flat on its face because of it.
It is far more likely, given the probabilities, that this man was merely experiencing "fight or flight" than he was a suicide bomber. The police didn't have any real evidence at all that he was a bomber, just circumstantial. That's not even enough for an arrest. You can't just shoot people on such flimsy evidence, even if they do run away. The fact of the matter is that potential freakouts are much more numerous than potential suicide bombers. They got it into their heads that he was a suicide bomber based on bugger all, and then interpreted his actions as those of a criminal instead of what was more likely: a freaked out law abiding citizen experiencing an episode of extreme stress that forced him into fight or flight mode. Even if he was actually a suicide bomber, the police still didn't have enough evidence to shoot him. They acted rashly and prematurely, and now this man is dead for being a well clad Dago in a public place.
Both of you have absolutely no case at all, and you've humiliated yourselves in this thread because of it.
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