25-07-2005 18:47									#271
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Okay Aggie and Horsie, fine, you don't like it. Tell us how you two would insure the safety of the general population. Educate the Moderates, the Conservatives and the Right wingers as to just excatly how order and safety can be maintained.

Give me a better mousetrap.

	25-07-2005 18:50									#272
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Aggie and Horsie have taken what's called the easy position.

When you don't want to think, it's easier to reflect in hindsight and say "he was killed when he was not a bomber, so what they did was wrong".

It's too much of a moral dilemma for them to actually think about the tradeoffs that need to be made by the cops in realtime.

	25-07-2005 18:51									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Okay Aggie and Horsie, fine, you don't like it. Tell us how you two would insure the safety of the general population. Educate the Moderates, the Conservatives and the Right wingers as to just excatly how order and safety can be maintained.

Oh there's no way now.

	25-07-2005 18:52									#274
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And paiktis22 is an insecure Greek troll.

	25-07-2005 18:54									#275
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and asher is a dumb tormented soul

	25-07-2005 19:06									#276
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'London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it." '


Once again I find myself in complete agreement with "red" Ken.

	25-07-2005 19:18									#277
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if by terrorist attacks he meant iraq, I'm completely in agreement.

	25-07-2005 19:25									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That's lame. I give it 2 out of 10. People's reactions to police are hard wired by their background and circumstances in my opinion. I wasn't surprised to learn he was from Brazil. He could have been running for any number of reasons, like visa problems, unpaid fines etc. I imagine the tube would be a common escape route for petty thieves etc. This shoot to kill policy is clearly unsafe.

Yes, it's unsafe for suicide bombers and anyone who has lived in the United Kingdom long enough to understand the phrase 'Stop! Armed police!' but not long enough to appreciate then that halting is a good idea.

" Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years. He originally came from the small city of Gonzaga, some 500 miles northeast of Sao Paulo in the state of Minas Gerais.

"He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves told the O Globo Online Web site from her home in Sao Paulo. "


Armed police don't routinely halt people for unpaid parking fines or visa bills two weeks or even two years after four suicide bombings.

His family apprently lives on a farm in Brazil, so perhaps the word you're looking for is fazenda rather than favela.


Could be just as well you're not going to Brazil then- as a trip to the favela might have unexpected hidden consequences for you if you had confused it with a coffee fazenda.

fazenda
noun

fazendas
1. Especially in Brazil: a large estate, plantation or cattle ranch.

Derivative: fazendeiro
noun

Someone who owns or runs such a property.
Etymology: 19c: Portuguese, same as Spanish hacienda, from Latin facienda things to be done.


Main Entry: fa·ve·la
Variant(s): also fa·vel·la /f&-'ve-l&/
Function: noun

Etymology: Brazilian Portuguese favela, perhaps from Favela, hill outside Rio de Janeiro

: a settlement of jerry-built shacks lying on the outskirts of a Brazilian city


I give the 'Brazilian slum dweller fear of police excuse' 0.001 out of 10.

	25-07-2005 19:28									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Then again, this was Britain, so the police were probably just incompetent idiots much like the rest of British society. Is there something in the water there that prevents any form of efficient organization?

Gosh- so much for one world communism. The Internationale really does unite the human race, doesn't it ?


Feelin' the love, Comrade Aggie, feelin' the love.

	25-07-2005 20:20									#280
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Very funny molly, except that those of us who've said he lived in a favela were referencing another news story that said he moved to Sao Paulo when he was 14. Don't chastise us for your own ignorance

"Okay Aggie and Horsie, fine, you don't like it. Tell us how you two would insure the safety of the general population."

My own take: if armed police are trailing someone that they would consider a terrorist attack were they to run away after being challenged, challenge them BEFORE the situation gets to the point where lethal force is necessary. i.e. BEFORE they get to a hot terrorist target, certainly BEFORE they get to the second one!

Because even if you think Agathon is full of crap, you can't ignore the simple fact that humans have an in-built "fight or flight" mentality that will grip them at least some of the time when faced with guns pointed in their direction. Of course, you can also take the Asher approach and sneer when such people get killed that it's natural selection at work, move on and wait for the next tragedy/ Darwinism to occur.

	25-07-2005 20:23									#281
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Oh yes, and the guy had an expired visa, apaprently, which explains (but not excuses) why he ran away. Of course, if the police had done their jobs they would have already known this before they put five bullets in their brain, but who are we to judge them?

	25-07-2005 20:27									#282
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Are we sure the cops weren't overzealous immigration officials?

quote: Of course, you can also take the Asher approach and sneer when such people get killed that it's natural selection at work, move on and wait for the next tragedy/ Darwinism to occur.

Running from cops with guns who ordered you to stop onto a subway a day after they were bombed -- damn straight, that's Darwinism.

	25-07-2005 20:32									#283
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quote: Of course, if the police had done their jobs they would have already known this before they put five bullets in their brain, but who are we to judge them?

Because god knows life is just like a computer game, I click the "investigation" button and instantly know everything about him.

	25-07-2005 20:33									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Aggie and Horsie have taken what's called the easy position. When you don't want to think, it's easier to reflect in hindsight and say "he was killed when he was not a bomber, so what they did was wrong". It's too much of a moral dilemma for them to actually think about the tradeoffs that need to be made by the cops in realtime.

At least admit they made a mistake by stopping him in the underground. Why let him on a bus and on the streets if he's got a coat in the summer?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...=cnn_topstories

quote: On Sunday Pereira, 28, re-enacted Menezes' final movements, leaving his flat in south London and taking a bus to Stockwell Underground station, where the shooting occurred on Friday. "I want to show the people the police could have stopped him before he took the bus," said Pereira. "They killed him because they had to show off. If they were so afraid of a bomb why did they let him get on the bus?"

The police picked the worst possible place for this arrest. More important, by doing so, they show that they didn't think he was going to detonate a bomb. So why assault him with armed plainclothes police after he uses the bus system?

	25-07-2005 20:34									#285
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AH already made the ultimate funny about ticket inspectors being overly harsh these days, we aint gonna top that

Unfortunately laughing about it and just saying, "That's Darwinism!" does not really go any way towards answering how tragedies like this can be stopped in future.

But hey, in the name of Darwinism, why don't we give ALL police guns, and tell them to randomly point their guns at random people? Whites as well as foreigners? Sure there'd be a few thousand idiots that'd think they can run away, but they'd be dealth with and soon we'd soon have the most intelligent - if pacified - civilization in ze world!

	25-07-2005 20:36									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Very funny molly, except that those of us who've said he lived in a favela were referencing another news story that said he moved to Sao Paulo when he was 14. Don't chastise us for your own ignorance

I'm not chastising anyone for ignorance- it's positively embarassing to see someone suggest that because at one time the dead man may have lived in a Brazilian city that he couldn't somehow then understand English after living here for three years and he had a flashback to when he was an extra in 'Pixote' or 'City of God'.

I have friends who come from Sao Paulo and it's far from being a wall to wall slum.


And, hard to believe, British police don't shoot you for expired visas either.

	25-07-2005 20:37									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Because god knows life is just like a computer game, I click the "investigation" button and instantly know everything about him.

You really think it's too much to expect the police to know who they're trailing at any given time? Unless he lived in an apartment complex of hundreds of people I don't think it's too much to ask. But then, you don't even care if police kill innocent people, so why would you care about such small details like them knowing who lives in a building they're watching?

	25-07-2005 20:38									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Whites as well as foreigners?

Uhh, whites are foreigners too. Or at least the Canadian woman I helped today was both white and foreign.

	25-07-2005 20:40									#289
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it would be stupid if they said police but they didnt it. unfortunately for them there were eye and ear! witnesses.then they proceeded in firing 5 shots at him. they lost it pure and simple. untrained. however that wasnt the #1 mistake. the amazing is that they let him get in the metro.

	25-07-2005 20:41									#290
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quote: Unfortunately laughing about it and just saying, "That's Darwinism!" does not really go any way towards answering how tragedies like this can be stopped in future.

Well, as long as there are stupid people in this world there will be stupid deaths.

I'd imagine the publicity of this will itself help prevent future people from running from undercover cops shouting "STOP! ARMED POLICE!" like this tool did.

	25-07-2005 20:41									#291
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 it would be stupid if they said police but they didnt it. unfortunately for them there were eye and ear! witnesses.then they proceeded in firing 5 shots at him. they lost it pure and simple. untrained. however that wasnt the #1 mistake. the amazing is that they let him get in the metro.

They said "STOP! ARMED POLICE!" before he entered the station.

He made the brilliant decision to run onto the train at that point, and he paid for it.

	25-07-2005 20:44									#292
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If they knew he had an expired visa (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=50439), which any intelligence agency worth crap should know, and if they didn't think he had a bomb when he boarded the bus, then why wait to stop him in the tube?

He ran because he thought they were immigration officials, which is what they should have been. The police who suspected him of being a terrorist are now entirely to blame.

	25-07-2005 20:44									#293
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 it would be stupid if they said police but they didnt it.

quote: He had failed to obey orders from armed officers to stop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonl...1535246,00.html

quote: When Menezes, dressed in baseball cap, blue fleece and baggy trousers, emerged from it at around 10am on Friday, he was followed. When he headed for the nearby tube station, officers decided to arrest him. An armed unit took over, ordering him to stop. He did not.

	25-07-2005 20:45									#294
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Uhh, whites are foreigners too. Or at least the Canadian woman I helped today was both white and foreign.

Way to pick the most flippant and least relevant part of my post to pick apart! I guess I should just be grateful you didn't break out the dictionary to explain the difference between "foreign" and "white"

	25-07-2005 20:45									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Way to pick the most flippant and least relevant part of my post to pick apart! I guess I should just be grateful you didn't break out the dictionary to explain the difference between "foreign" and "white"

If you don't know, I'll gladly assist.

	25-07-2005 20:45									#296
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the eye witness clearly said that they said "get out get down".

and then what? boogie?

	25-07-2005 20:46									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf He ran because he thought they were immigration officials, which is what they should have been.

He told you this ?

	25-07-2005 20:49									#298
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Whoa, according to molly's link, he had bullet holes in his back. I guess that finally puts paid to the notion that police genuinely thought he had a bomb on him, as we've been told countless times in this thread that's why they didn't aim for the body.

	25-07-2005 20:50									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie My own take: if armed police are trailing someone that they would consider a terrorist attack were they to run away after being challenged, challenge them BEFORE the situation gets to the point where lethal force is necessary. i.e. BEFORE they get to a hot terrorist target, certainly BEFORE they get to the second one! .

Uh they DID tell him to stop before he got to the tube. He ran. Supposing theyd jumped him before he got to the tube, suspected he was a suicide bomber. What then? Wouldnt they do the same thing they did on the tube? Or would they not, since if he blows, he "only" kills a few cops, not a carload of passengers? And if they shoot him BEFORE he gets on the tube, would you and others not be MORE convinced the police did the wrong thing?

	25-07-2005 20:52									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Whoa, according to molly's link, he had bullet holes in his back. I guess that finally puts paid to the notion that police genuinely thought he had a bomb on him, as we've been told countless times in this thread that's why they didn't aim for the body.

"Pereira said that the most upsetting part of identifying his cousin was 'to see bullet wounds in his back and his neck when I went to the mortuary in Greenwich"

Hmmm. Lets see what the autopsy says.