25-07-2005 20:56									#301
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Two policeman walk down the road towards him, two walk in the other direction. If he runs, they catch him. If he doesn't, they catch him. A little bit of panic on either side, but not at the same level of, "OMG HE'S GONNA BLOW UP STOCKWELL TUBE STATION!!!", meaning no need to blow him away.

It's hardly rocket science. would your security forces let a suicide bomber walk right up to his target if they thought he was a genuine threat, lotm?

	25-07-2005 20:59									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Two policeman walk down the road towards him, two walk in the other direction. If he runs, they catch him. If he doesn't, they catch him.

What, with their bomb proof hands and suicide bomber nets ?


The point being they couldn't tell from a distance if he was a suicide bomber or not. Perhaps they could have texted him on his mobile and asked.

	25-07-2005 21:10									#303
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You really think there is no alternative whatsoever to letting the suspect get within a few metres of his supposed target? Are you really that braindead?

They had no huge reason to think he was a suicide bomber (Especially given how, you know, he wasn't). But there is a middle ground between setting 20 armed officers on him and giving him a free reign to go to wherever he likes, in order to find this out.

He ran because he thought he could get away. Take away his potential escape route, and he would not have run. Except maybe into the arms of some officers who might have decided he was better off in custody. He may even have co-operated. But now we'll never know, because the police gave him a potential escape route.

Come on, you have to admit it's pretty shoddy policework if they thought he was planning to blow up a tube station and they let him run right in there. Don't buy into Asher and Pat's mindset that they did everyting right, when theyclearly did not. No-one did the right thing here, least of all the victim- but he's already paid.

Last edited by Gibsie on 25-07-2005 at 21:15

	25-07-2005 21:18									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie You really think there is no alternative whatsoever to letting the suspect get within a few metres of his supposed target? Are you really that braindead? They had no huge reason to think he was a suicide bomber (Especially given how, you know, he wasn't). But there is a middle ground between setting 20 armed officers on him and giving him a free reign to go to wherever he likes, in order to find this out. He ran because he thought he could get away. Take away his potential escape route, and he would not have run. Except maybe into the arms of some officers who might have decided he was better off in custody. He may even have co-operated. But now we'll never know, because the police gave him a potential escape route. Come on, you have to admit it's pretty shoddy policework if they thought he was planning to blow up a tube station and they let him run right in there. Don't buy into Asher and Pat's mindset that they did everyting right, when theyclearly did not. No-one did the right thing here, least of all the victim- but he's already paid.

I dont know for sure if police made the right decision, I will await results of an investigation. But my sympathy goes out to police who had to make a split second decision. IE, I share the sentiment of the Mayor of London, which i quoted above.

	25-07-2005 21:18									#305
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i dont buy that "victim was wrong" mantra. he was human. different people react differently to the police. even if he had nothing to fear maybe he got panicked. this is a split second decision in front of a gun. (unlike the luxury of surveillance the police had) asher, for example, could have done exactly the same.

	25-07-2005 21:23									#306
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And why couldn't they shoot him in the leg or shoulder? Most cops are trained to shoot to maim, not kill.

Really ?? Where?

AFAIK police are trained to aim for the torso and to fire to kill. At amy distance, shooting at moving body parts is foolish anyway.

	25-07-2005 21:33									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I think running from cops who think you're about to be the 9th bomber in a week to try to maim hundreds of civilians, you do deserve to die as a precaution. Thems the breaks...

While I don't agree that he "deserved" to die, I don't blame police for taking the actions they did in that fact situation.

Would it be beyond the capabilities of the terrorist groups to have a few of their members try stunts like this? The actual bombings tend to unit people while an incident like thisdivides public opinion and perhaps makes it more likely that a future bomber may succeed (police hesitate etc )

	25-07-2005 21:43									#308
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believe me if the police had even a miniscule shred of evidence linking that man to anything other than light bulbs they would have been yelling it from the rooftops.

	25-07-2005 22:05									#309
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Update: Shot seven times in the head, once in the shoulder. Probably not the back. Ouch. There's being sure, and there's being sure, I guess.

	25-07-2005 22:12									#310
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Why do I get the feeling that next time we see an incident of police officers shooting and killing an actual bomber, some people here will keep on and on over the course of several days, blaming the police for overreacting. "It wasn't a very big bomb", "He didn't even detonate it", "He lived his entire life in Iceland, that ought to be taken into account".

	25-07-2005 22:17									#311
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If that happens, I'll go back to my original complaint, which is that it's a wasted opportunity to get some first-class intelligence.

	25-07-2005 22:19									#312
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The police definitely were not perfect on this one. After all, someone they suspected of being a bomber made it into a train station. But for those advocating early apprehension, think about it.

Police were watching a block of flats . . . Dozens of police or just a few-- I assume just a few and probably not the people best trained in a takedown. You see something that looks suspicious so you detail a few officers to follow a suspect. You then call for a takedown team of some type while surveillance continues-- No one is in position to prevent him boarding a bus but perhaps knowing the bus routes, a group of officers can be congregated. You still hope this suspect will lead you to some information but the bulky coat is worrisome so the order goes out that he is not to enter a train station.

Police confront him to stop him but when he bolts, does not fire due to the crowds. Whe he trips/is tackled an officer(or two) immediately begins firing with the result that the supect is shot dead numerous times.

Plausible scenario??

I just think the folks that say he should have been taken down elsewhere/sooner are losing sight of the fact that it take time to get a team together, particularly when you don't know where a suspect is going

	25-07-2005 23:25									#313
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They were tailing him to see if he would lead them to other people would be my guess. They knew he wasn't one of the 4 from the cctv pictures. When he went into tube station they decided that the risk was to big and that they had to stop him and check him out. They moved in with armed uits and told him to stop. He didn't, instead jumped over a barrier and ran for the tube. Police caught up to him, and assuming he was a suicide bomber, shot him.

His main misfortune was that he lived in the same block of flats that they had under surveillance. You can't go "They must know he was brazilian, he couldn't be a terrorists". Remember that one of the 7/7 terrorists was Jamaican. Can't racially profile really.

	26-07-2005 01:08									#314
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According to Swedish news, his work permit had expired, which might be a reason for him to run from the police.

	26-07-2005 01:46									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Israel is a really bad example, by the way. Don't they shoot many times as many innocent people as they do bombers?

Nope.

	26-07-2005 02:01									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie According to Swedish news, his work permit had expired, which might be a reason for him to run from the police.

Sigh. Yeah, that may be the reason, but did he wear a big sign saying that that was the case when he ran into a subway train ?

What do you want ? That police doesn't act like this when people act like this and then blame the police for NOT taking out the guy when he is a sucide bomber that kills 40 people ?

I can't imagine that anyone living in London isn't aware of the fact that police isn't as relaxed as they used to be and if someone claims to be police and pointing guns at you, you don't run.

Ok, you may be a drugdealer that has spoiled a deal with some Columbian drugbaron, but I guess that you are in greater trouble.

	26-07-2005 02:28									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber The police definitely were not perfect on this one. After all, someone they suspected of being a bomber made it into a train station. But for those advocating early apprehension, think about it. Police were watching a block of flats . . . Dozens of police or just a few-- I assume just a few and probably not the people best trained in a takedown. You see something that looks suspicious so you detail a few officers to follow a suspect. You then call for a takedown team of some type while surveillance continues-- No one is in position to prevent him boarding a bus but perhaps knowing the bus routes, a group of officers can be congregated. You still hope this suspect will lead you to some information but the bulky coat is worrisome so the order goes out that he is not to enter a train station. Police confront him to stop him but when he bolts, does not fire due to the crowds. Whe he trips/is tackled an officer(or two) immediately begins firing with the result that the supect is shot dead numerous times. Plausible scenario?? I just think the folks that say he should have been taken down elsewhere/sooner are losing sight of the fact that it take time to get a team together, particularly when you don't know where a suspect is going

Then they should have had more people watching the flats. They fubared this one. If the police shot everyone that acted like this, the casualty count would be unacceptable.

	26-07-2005 02:30									#318
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I read this morning that the police have already changed their story numerous times. Typical.

	26-07-2005 02:32									#319
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He sure didn't look "asiatic" to me. If there's anything worse than bigotry in uniform, it's indiscriminant bigotry in uniform.

	26-07-2005 02:36									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I read this morning that the police have already changed their story numerous times. Typical.

Yeah, I also hate it when they changes stories just because more information gets avaliable.

	26-07-2005 02:38									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove He sure didn't look "asiatic" to me. If there's anything worse than bigotry in uniform, it's indiscriminant bigotry in uniform.

I'm not sure - was it witnesses and journalists that said that or was it official police statements ?

	26-07-2005 03:18									#322
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what we are really talking about here is giving police the power to summarily execute suspects. Who can agree with that?

	26-07-2005 03:35									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse what we are really talking about here is giving police the power to summarily execute suspects. Who can agree with that?

Nope, that is not the quetion that is under debate here. What we are talking about is if someone acts like a potential suicide bomber, is it then reasonable that police tries to prevent triggering a bomb.

What you are suggesting is something that has no connection to how police acts when circumstances are different.

	26-07-2005 03:53									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Then they should have had more people watching the flats. They fubared this one. If the police shot everyone that acted like this, the casualty count would be unacceptable.

Really?? Do you have any idea how many places they are trying to watch? I don't but lets assume 24 hour surveillance. Even a 10 man team would tie 40 officers (working 12 hour shifts and alternate days). So if 3 suspects left at once, you could at most have a 2-3 officer tail which is nowhere near enough to prevent him from going where he wants.

So how many more folks did they need? Do you think the police have unlimited resources?? I'm betting they are watching a number of places where they don't really have any solid proof of any wrongdoing. To expect them to have "more people" at each of them is unrealistic.

Oh right I forget, your opinions have nothing to do with practicality and reality

	26-07-2005 03:56									#325
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Bottom line . . . if you run from police toward a train station you get dead quick.

While its unfortunate if you are innocent, I don't see the underlying premise there as too unexpected.

Its not that dissimilar to a car that fails to stop at a military checkpoint in Iraq and gets hosed with machine gun fire. Same idea-- unknown threat and failure to heed a warning

	26-07-2005 04:20									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove He sure didn't look "asiatic" to me. If there's anything worse than bigotry in uniform, it's indiscriminant bigotry in uniform.

Indiscriminant bigotry

	26-07-2005 04:51									#327
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Sigh. Yeah, that may be the reason, but did he wear a big sign saying that that was the case when he ran into a subway train ? What do you want ? That police doesn't act like this when people act like this and then blame the police for NOT taking out the guy when he is a sucide bomber that kills 40 people ? ---

Shooting an innocent is a crime beyond any excuse. That's exactly what the terrorists want the police to do. That's how they win. Make the government look bad...

	26-07-2005 05:04									#328
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I don't in any way say that shooting an innocent is good - what I say is that it is better that they shoot down a SC bomber than if he manges to make his bomb to explode.

This time police happend to kill an innocent, but it was an innocent that in all his actions made the police think that he wasn't innocent - ie he acted like an suicide bomber. Please tell me what choices those policemens (weteher they where special or ordinary) had.

Actually, I think that terrorist bombers are deeply scared about police that is determined to fight them - they are even more scaried about civilians that figth them, and at that point, I think that they have found out that they are very lonesome in UK.

	26-07-2005 05:07									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Shooting an innocent is a crime beyond any excuse. That's exactly what the terrorists want the police to do. That's how they win. Make the government look bad...

This is quite rediciousisly, but I have to ask. What is blowing up 40+ people ?

	26-07-2005 08:05									#330
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its all just an excuse for every authoritarian idiot in Western society to get his wet dream of order and rules and surveillance

complete overreaction and hysteria