26-07-2005 10:34									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Owned... The point is that fight or flight is a well documented stress response...

Then document it, dumbass, and stop polluting this thread with arguments that rely on citations about Rodney King being chased down the freeway by the LAPD.

	26-07-2005 10:34									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A special branch officer who was involved in the dirty war in Northern Ireland says it does - so who is right, him or you? We were right about Iraq and we'll be right about this too. So why not just give it up?

Strangely, I think that I'm rigth despite what you claims to be unaviodable evidence - your witness may have some crediblity, but since he never has been even close to a sucide bomber, I don't concider his evidence relevant.

	26-07-2005 10:40									#363
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Who is 'we'? A bunch of malcontents urging the chaos on so you can have your revolution?

I don't want a revolution. I want to keep living my life without a bunch of misguided busy bodies like you sticking their beek in, eroding my civil liberties and privacy and setting up all sorts of nasty intrusive and completely ineffective measures in the name of security, but really because it gives you a hard on, for what is at best a remote and insignificant threat.

The lunacy of it all - we've set up baggage x-ray machines at at tin shed outback airports just on the off chance of a hijacking from the back of beyond. The last time I checked there were no Taliban in the Australian Western desert.

	26-07-2005 10:43									#364
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Strangely, I think that I'm rigth despite what you claims to be unaviodable evidence - your witness may have some crediblity, but since he never has been even close to a sucide bomber, I don't concider his evidence relevant.

And what pray tell is so special about a suicide bomber? What is the difference between how you treat a suicide bomber and say a sniper? Or a drunk driver for that matter, which is a much bigger threat here than terrorists.

	26-07-2005 10:45									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I don't want a revolution. I want to keep living my life without a bunch of misguided busy bodies like you sticking their beek in, eroding my civil liberties and privacy and setting up all sorts of nasty intrusive and completely ineffective measures in the name of security, but really because it gives you a hard on, for what is at best a remote and insignificant threat. The lunacy of it all - we've set up baggage x-ray machines at at tin shed outback airports just on the off chance of a hijacking from the back of beyond. The last time I checked there were no Taliban in the Australian Western desert.

Indeed. You want to be blown up by that suicide bomber that the police decided they shouldn't shoot.

You think the first cop to jump on him would have done so if he were not certain his partner would finish the job?

But, yes, I agree, the lives of victims of a criminal act are not worth saving if it means that you lose your right to ignore the orders of the police.

BTW, when did 'The Right to Ignore Police' get enshrined in our civil liberties, anyways?

	26-07-2005 10:48									#366
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quote: at best a remote and insignificant threat

Eight bombs in the last fortnight... remote and insignificant threat...

	26-07-2005 10:52									#367
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even if you living in London your chances of being a victim of a terrorist blast are infinitessimal - 50 victims out of what? 5 million people? 1 in a 100,000 chance roughly?

	26-07-2005 10:54									#368
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So, the police should just ignore it then, yes?

	26-07-2005 10:54									#369
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It's bizarre. They seem to want to give up the fundamental rule that governs policing in our countries: people cannot be arrested or manhandled without just cause.

We have this rule for a good reason, even though it might on occasion mean that suicide bombers get away with it.

In an ordinary cost benefit analysis people weigh the detaining of the innocent for flimsy reasons against the seriousness of the crime they are suspected of attempting. The more serious the crime, the flimsier the reasons.

But that's not how our justice system works. You cannot arrest or detain or shoot people for flimsy reasons, no matter what the seriousness of the crime they are suspected of attempting. It's the same reasoning as that behind the presumption of innocence. The state has to overcome a greater burden of proof, because if we didn't have that, innocent people would be arrested for bad reasons. We pay for this important social liberty by making ourselves more vulnerable to criminals, but that is because we think that social liberties are more important, and that the potential for abuses if we don't preserve them is worse than the alternative.

People find it easier to commit crimes in free societies. If you want to change that, then the cost is making your country much more of a police state.

	26-07-2005 10:55									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Owned...

First of all, I think that there aren't anything to laugh of, but if you feel that way, please be welcome, and oh, if you think that you have "Owned..." anyone, then please enjoy it ....

quote: The point is that fight or flight is a well documented stress response in which people behave irrationally. Being confronted by the police is a very stressful situation for most people (except for criminals who are used to it), and often provokes a fight or flight response. That's why soccer moms end up leading the police on wild car chases. The police have stopped engaging in such chases in most areas simply because it almost always leads to worse outcomes (collateral damage, etc.). This is because the awareness and judgement of both the person being chased, and to a lesser extent the officers is impaired by the stress response. Police are now being trained to recognize when they are experiencing a stress response like "fight or flight" and how to deal with it effectively so that their judgement is not impaired. We don't have the time or resources to give every citizen the same training, so they aren't going to deal with the stress as well as the cops. What's exactly the same in this case is that this resulted in all likelihood from Mr Menezes experiencing an acute stress response that impaired his judgement and caused him to run like hell. There's nothing abnormal about this. Just as people start car chases when cops yell at them, others run from the cops for little or no reason. If you've watched the TV show Cops, you've seen this hundreds of times. Dumb people always say "Why do they run when they only have an expired license or something minor?" The answer is because the stress response impairs their judgement. Do you live in a cave? Have you never seen this and wondered whether there was a more rational explanation for their seemingly irrational behaviour? Again, this is not abnormal. Decent law abiding people will act strangely and attempt to flee if confronted with such situations. This is a scientifically established fact – it's something the police know, and that these officers should have had in mind. Your whole argument falls flat on its face because of it.

Nice explanation of common circumstances. I guess that this is common knowledge for most special forces.

quote: It is far more likely, given the probabilities, that this man was merely experiencing "fight or flight" than he was a suicide bomber. The police didn't have any real evidence at all that he was a bomber, just circumstantial. That's not even enough for an arrest. You can't just shoot people on such flimsy evidence, even if they do run away. The fact of the matter is that potential freakouts are much more numerous than potential suicide bombers. They got it into their heads that he was a suicide bomber based on bugger all, and then interpreted his actions as those of a criminal instead of what was more likely: a freaked out law abiding citizen experiencing an episode of extreme stress that forced him into fight or flight mode. Even if he was actually a suicide bomber, the police still didn't have enough evidence to shoot him. They acted rashly and prematurely, and now this man is dead for being a well clad Dago in a public place.

Please explain how those policemens should be able to distinguish between one fleeing because he was afraid because of his problematic paper situation and a person that was determined on blowing up as many people as possible. Not even your clever explanation of why people may run can give a clear distcintion between some person that runs for unreasonable reasons and some that run for a purpose.

quote: Both of you have absolutely no case at all, and you've humiliated yourselves in this thread because of it.

It is clearly described above why this statement is pure BS.

	26-07-2005 10:55									#371
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You know, more Americans died in auto accidents that year. It's not such a big deal, yep, yep.

What a retarded argument.

Last edited by notyoueither on 26-07-2005 at 11:30

	26-07-2005 10:56									#372
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither BTW, when did 'The Right to Ignore Police' get enshrined in our civil liberties, anyways?

the last time I checked, that is before this incident which you so absurdly defend, ignoring a Policeman was not death penalty offense

	26-07-2005 10:56									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's bizarre. They seem to want to give up the fundamental rule that governs policing in our countries: people cannot be arrested or manhandled without just cause.

Key phrase, 'just cause', learn it.

	26-07-2005 10:57									#374
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, the police should just ignore it then, yes?

I'm beginning to realise you aren't the sharpest pencil in the case.....

	26-07-2005 10:58									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse the last time I checked, that is before this incident which you so absurdly defend, ignoring a Policeman was not death penalty offense

And a cop won't be prosecuted for blowing you away when you keep your weapon after he has confronted you.

Your point?

	26-07-2005 11:00									#376
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Then document it, dumbass, and stop polluting this thread with arguments that rely on citations about Rodney King being chased down the freeway by the LAPD.

Go look for yourself. Fight or flight is a widely known fact. The Discovery Channel regularly shows documentaries about policing that deal with this subject. It's also a widely known fact that car chases are frowned upon for this very reason – the same reason that ordinary people run from the police apparently irrationally. Read up on it. The police themselves are interested in it because they want to do a better job and avoid situations like this.

You said that people who run from the police deserve what they get. The problem with that is that the facts regarding human beings under acute stress mean they don't. They aren't responsible in any normal sense of the word, nor are they being stupid. I know this, the cops know it... apparently you don't.

Without factoring this obvious feature of reality into it, your argument is a complete toilet and you've been owned.

	26-07-2005 11:03									#377
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And a cop won't be prosecuted for blowing you away when you keep your weapon after he has confronted you. Your point?

No a cop willl be prosecuted for that. Its called manslaughter or unlawful killing. Failure to obey a police instruction does not give the policeman the right to open fire even if you are armed.

And the innocent victim in this case was not armed. Your point?

	26-07-2005 11:04									#378
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Key phrase, 'just cause', learn it.

Congratulations, you are now a fascist. You want to replace the social freedoms we enjoy with respect to our police, and replace them with a crude utilitarian calculus that would erode our social freedoms. That's not how free societies work sonny.

They did not have just cause in this case. If that's what you think just cause is, then I hope to God you never have a position of authority in any society.

It strikes me that you've resorted to bitter ripostes now you know you've been beat. Pretty funny....

	26-07-2005 11:04									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No a cop willl be prosecuted for that. Its called manslaughter or unlawful killing. Failure to obey a police instruction does not give the policeman the right to open fire even if you are armed. And the innocent victim in this caes was not armed. Your point?

His point is that he knows he's lost but can't admit it.

	26-07-2005 11:06									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'm beginning to realise you aren't the sharpest pencil in the case.....

Really? How many mass homicides does London have in any given year that they should be so flippant about these ones?

I'd give a damn what you realised, if you seemed to have the judgement that God and nature gave a chimp.

	26-07-2005 11:06									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse the last time I checked, that is before this incident which you so absurdly defend, ignoring a Policeman was not death penalty offense

And how many has sufferd this "death penalty" the last 14 days ?

Unles I'm wrong, there has onle been one - no other has been even near to such a situation - shortly said, your claim that it has become common police action is simply null an void.

	26-07-2005 11:08									#382
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Really? How many mass homicides does London have in any given year that they should be so flippant about these ones?

This is the price we pay for living in a free society. Go live in North Korea if you don't like it. Like most people, I prefer a free society with a small risk of catastrophe to an unfree society where I am a little bit safer.

	26-07-2005 11:08									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Go look for yourself. Fight or flight is a widely known fact.

Then site it with regard to police in some fashion other than an article about high speed pursuits in North America that use Rodney King as an argument.

	26-07-2005 11:09									#384
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat And how many has sufferd this "death penalty" the last 14 days ?

You don't get it. One is too much. It doesn't matter how many people die from suicide bombings – allowing the police to do this sort of thing would fundamentally change the expectations we have of them, and not in a way that most people would like.

	26-07-2005 11:09									#385
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wrong again Blackcat- the shoot to kill policy remains in place and was confirmed today in London - in other words more innocent people are likely to die

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 26-07-2005 at 11:15

	26-07-2005 11:10									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No a cop willl be prosecuted for that. Its called manslaughter or unlawful killing. Failure to obey a police instruction does not give the policeman the right to open fire even if you are armed.

Ahem *bullshit*, ahem.

quote: And the innocent victim in this case was not armed. Your point?

Oh, quite droll we are today, I see.

Tell me how many barrels does a suicide bomber have visible?

	26-07-2005 11:13									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This is the price we pay for living in a free society. Go live in North Korea if you don't like it. Like most people, I prefer a free society with a small risk of catastrophe to an unfree society where I am a little bit safer.

You prefer dead cops and live criminals. We've already established that. Can we move on?

	26-07-2005 11:13									#388
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First of all, it is likely these men were not average police. It is more likely they were SAS or SBS. As a result, they are not average bobbies untrained in how to use firearms properly.

Additionally, the man legged it when they shouted "Stop! Police!", hurdled a turnstile and jumped onto a train. He had wires hanging from him (possibly a walkman, but given the puffy jacket also a chance it could be a bomb). His suspicious behaviour, probable struggle on the ground, and his ignoring of police warning means he was doing everything possible to ask to be shot, short of literally asking.

Question their means, I'm sure they do that all the time. But don't question their motives.

	26-07-2005 11:14									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse wrong again - the shoot to kill policy remains in place and was confirmed today in London - in other words more innocent people are likely to die

Of course it is - give one good reason why it shouldn't.

The chance of an innocent going to be killed by police is close to nil.

	26-07-2005 11:14									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius Question their means, I'm sure they do that all the time. But don't question their motives.

Indeed.