25-07-2005 15:54									#241
	Tired of ads?

If people identify themselves as armed police in Brazil, you run if you're from the favella.

	25-07-2005 16:05									#242
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse If people identify themselves as armed police in Brazil, you run if you're from the favella.

He wasn't in Brazil, and neither were the police. And I seriously doubt he'd spent the preceding days in an hermetically sealed environment, either.

	25-07-2005 16:14									#243
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Things that dont click.

_When you have a house under surveillance, you make sure to learn
a)who lives there
b) their background
c) is someone an inocent electrician from brazil who's main interest is winning the world cup
d) what each one looks like and be able to identify them when you see them living the house

_when someone leaves the house
a) you know who each one is
b) you have assessed their risk level (if he's presumed dangerous

_when someone who has left the house walks around
a) you make a decision to book him before he heads for a metro where the fatalities will be big, automatically

_if you nevertheless let him go into the metro not knowing who he is even though you have his house in surveillance
a) you yell "police freeze" at him. you dont yell get down get out and running after him with a gun
b) you make absolutely sure he knows you are the police

_if you blow all of these things up and you just go after him like you're some kind of shady character with a gun
a) if you have him pinned down, you dont shoot him in the head without knowing if he's already holding a button to detonate and him being dead will release it and boom
b) you dont fire 5 shots at him. 5 shots. the guy probably doesnt even have a face now.

_if you did all this
a) you're right to call it a tragedy

	25-07-2005 16:16									#244
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: And why couldn't they shoot him in the leg or shoulder? Most cops are trained to shoot to maim, not kill.

What a naive statement.

Cops are actually trained to only draw their weapon when they deem there is a possibility of danger to themselves or others.

And trainied to shoot only if they intend to kill (except for a few snipers). They are always trained to shoot for the center of mass.

	25-07-2005 16:19									#245
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You guys just can't be pleased.

If they had said, "well, he had reason to believe he was a bomber but had just started our investigation, and had no solid proof, so we just let him walk into the Tube and kill 30 people. But we followed the rules to the T" you all would be screaming bloody murder.

	25-07-2005 16:38									#246
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Except if they suspected him of being a suicide bomber the correct procedure would not be to let him get on public transport in the first place. That is where the police failed unquestionably.

	25-07-2005 16:39									#247
	Remove this text

quote: Except if they suspected him of being a suicide bomber the correct procedure would not be to let him get on public transport in the first place. That is where the police failed unquestionably.

Or perhaps they had decided to follow the rules and tail the guy first, but their common sense got the better of them at the moment of truth?

	25-07-2005 16:41									#248
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom He wasn't in Brazil, and neither were the police. And I seriously doubt he'd spent the preceding days in an hermetically sealed environment, either.

That's lame. I give it 2 out of 10.

People's reactions to police are hard wired by their background and circumstances in my opinion.

I wasn't surprised to learn he was from Brazil.

He could have been running for any number of reasons, like visa problems, unpaid fines etc.

I imagine the tube would be a common escape route for petty thieves etc.

This shoot to kill policy is clearly unsafe.

	25-07-2005 16:47									#249
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: He could have been running for any number of reasons, like visa problems, unpaid fines etc.

Etc. including having 20lbs of TNT strapped to his chest.

If you run from the police, for whatever reason, YOU are responsible for what happens. All he had to do was stop, go to the station for a few hours, get cleared as the police were obviously capable of doing, and go home.

He was a dumbass.

	25-07-2005 16:50									#250
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Or perhaps they had decided to follow the rules and tail the guy first, but their common sense got the better of them at the moment of truth?

If you think someone might have a bomb on them, and are fearful of them blowing up the public transport system, then you challenge them at the first available opportunity, before they actually get on a bus. To wait until it's a situation of either killing them or letting them blow themselves up (if they have a bomb) represents an inherent failure in the way the situation was handled.

E.g. a suspected suicide bomber turns up at an event for the president- do you wait until he runs up on stage before you stop him, or do you challenge him at the gates? Common sense? Yes please.

	25-07-2005 17:19									#251
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Etc. including having 20lbs of TNT strapped to his chest. If you run from the police, for whatever reason, YOU are responsible for what happens. All he had to do was stop, go to the station for a few hours, get cleared as the police were obviously capable of doing, and go home. He was a dumbass.

He was a dumbass. I'm not disputing that - but shooting him was not the appropriate response.

There are many situations where people endanger many lives, such as drunk drivers or speeding joy riders, but very few people would think opening fire is an appropriate police response.

	25-07-2005 17:40									#252
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: If you think someone might have a bomb on them, and are fearful of them blowing up the public transport system, then you challenge them at the first available opportunity, before they actually get on a bus.

Maybe for you or me, but for most of the people here leveling critisism, the right answer was not to follow him at all and let him get onto the bus and blow it up, becuase you had no evidence to even warrent following him. And once that bus does blow up they will instantly change stances and ask why they didn't shoot him five times.

It is an impossible standard to live up too.

	25-07-2005 17:45									#253
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse There are many situations where people endanger many lives, such as drunk drivers or speeding joy riders, but very few people would think opening fire is an appropriate police response.

Lots of people would – they're called right wingers. Y'know people who love force, brutally applied to preserve the social order.

NYE and others have made a classic example of authoritarian personalities. Hilarious.

	25-07-2005 17:46									#254
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: There are many situations where people endanger many lives, such as drunk drivers or speeding joy riders, but very few people would think opening fire is an appropriate police response.

Untill they blow a bomb up in a subway station killing a few dozen people, then all of a sudden everyone thinks the opposite.

	25-07-2005 17:47									#255
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Lots of people would – they're called right wingers. Y'know people who love force, brutally applied to preserve the social order.

I think the best examples of that int he last 100 years are acually left thinking people

	25-07-2005 17:50									#256
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You think gangs would do without guns if the cops didn't have them? What a fool.

Ours pretty much do. But that wasn't the point. If you had any sort of education at all, you would read what I read and notice that you missed the point. It's about avoiding escalation. If the cops don't have guns, it doesn't matter if the criminals do, since a shootout is still less likely.

The problem is that you're a right wing authoritarian who just doesn't know what he's talking about. Come up with some actual facts on victim behaviour... Oh no.. you can't? That's because you're talking out of your ass, as usual.

And it's nice that you chose that case, from way back when. That was the last police shooting I could think of in NZ and the guy was going berserk. They probably shouldn't have killed him either, and the police have been a bit more reasonable in similar cases since.

	25-07-2005 17:55									#257
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: The problem is that you're a right wing authoritarian who just doesn't know what he's talking about. Come up with some actual facts on victim behaviour... Oh no.. you can't? That's because you're talking out of your ass, as usual.

Enough with the personal crap... discuss the topic, not the posters!

	25-07-2005 17:55									#258
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Untill they blow a bomb up in a subway station killing a few dozen people, then all of a sudden everyone thinks the opposite.

Have you read nothing that has been written in this thread? People may think the opposite, but that makes them morons, or right wingers... but no difference there.

Having an open fire policy will lead to more deaths than the terrorists can hope to inflict. There are better ways of preventing terrorist attacks than opening fire on scared civilians. People act unpredictably when challenged by the police. Normal people. There are far more of them, and they are far more likely to be challenged than actual terrorists.

If you want to stop people bombing the tube, institute a search policy on all people going in. Sure, it will cause delays, but unless you think that a human sacrifice is worth the cost of you getting to work on time, that's not a problem (the problem is that right wingers probably actually believe that it does).

	25-07-2005 17:56									#259
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ming Enough with the personal crap... discuss the topic, not the posters!

Well, part of my topic is the authoritarian personality on display in this thread, but OK.

	25-07-2005 18:00									#260
	Increase Your PM Length

You missed the bit where Patroklos pointed out that historically, the lefties have been the most brutally authoritarian. Comfortably so.

	25-07-2005 18:01									#261
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: originally posted by molly bloom muggers are unlikely to ask you to halt by identifying themselves as armed police.....

it's actually a pretty good trick

	25-07-2005 18:04									#262
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Winston You missed the bit where Patroklos pointed out that historically, the lefties have been the most brutally authoritarian. Comfortably so.

I didn't miss it, I ignored it because it was so daft. Excluding Stalin and company, who only represent the left in the fantasies of people like you, who are you left with? Clement Atlee?

Why not try reading up on the authoritarian personality before you make such comments?

	25-07-2005 18:05									#263
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Having an open fire policy will lead to more deaths than the terrorists can hope to inflict.

so far the terrorists have managed over 50 more, clever bollocks.

	25-07-2005 18:07									#264
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Untill they blow a bomb up in a subway station killing a few dozen people, then all of a sudden everyone thinks the opposite.

hmmm no and even if they did, who wants mob rule. This all a knee jerk emotionally driven response, with tragic consequences.

the trouble with the situation now for those who support the shooting incident is if the police shoot another innocent person, which seems quite possible, then 2 innocent people will be dead and the policy will be quite dead with it.

So better to stop a flawed policy before any more innocent people get hurt

	25-07-2005 18:09									#265
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so far the terrorists have managed over 50 more, clever bollocks.

Once. And they screwed up the next time. Terrorism ain't easy. Let's say that there is one attack every two years, but the police keep shooting people. It ain't gonna take much for them to beat the terror count. And once this particular squabble is over, we will be left with gun happy police.

More people have died from lightning strikes in the US in the past 3 years than from terrorism.

Then again, this was Britain, so the police were probably just incompetent idiots much like the rest of British society. Is there something in the water there that prevents any form of efficient organization?

	25-07-2005 18:15									#266
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Agathon More people have died from lightning strikes in the US in the past 3 years than from terrorism.

The hysteria and overreaction to terrorist attack is really incredible. Even 9/11, spectacular as it was, only took out a few thousand people.

	25-07-2005 18:17									#267
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Even 9/11, spectacular as it was, only took out a few thousand people.

	25-07-2005 18:18									#268
	sit down, shut up. Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Once. And they screwed up the next time. Terrorism ain't easy. Let's say that there is one attack every two years, but the police keep shooting people. It ain't gonna take much for them to beat the terror count. And once this particular squabble is over, we will be left with gun happy police.

so the terrorist have had two attacks in two weeks (one failed), and the police have shot one person in the same amount of time. i'm impressed that you know that they'll be only one attack in the next two years, while the police will 'keep shooting people'. can i have a look at your crystal ball or did you just pull those 'figures' out of the same hole that everything you've posted so far has come from?

	25-07-2005 18:34									#269
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The police ****ed up - end of story!

People can try and justify it however they want to but all the facts point to a complete and irretrievable FUBAR...

Well at least the Italians finally grew balls and reversed their decision to cancel the Inter Milan tour.

People need to get a sense of perspective that terrorism in the West is a mere inconvenience to the overwhelming majority of the population while it remains in the realm of the conventional instead on launching on kneejerk reactions that alienate any goodwill that may have been built up due to these atrocities...

	25-07-2005 18:42									#270
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Excluding Stalin and company, who only represent the left in the fantasies of people like you, who are you left with? Clement Atlee?

But, but, but, except, if you don't include, ignore that, that doesn't count.... Aggie will always be Aggie.

So I will go ahead and discount Hitler, Pinocet (sp?), and Franco for the right, and the net result is...

You are still wrong.