24-07-2005 02:32									#91
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Even just a very small bit of evidence would of been nice before they delt out his execution.

Very small bit of evidence?
1) Leaving a building under surveillance as a potential terrorist residence
2) Wearing an excessively bulky jacket on a warm day
3) Fleeing from cops who told him "Stop, armed police"?

There's more than just a "small bit of evidence" which says he was likely to be something other than a guy on his way to work...

	24-07-2005 02:34									#92
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Even just a very small bit of evidence would of been nice before they delt out his execution. Living on the same block as a suspect and wearing baggy clothes doesn't cut it as far as death warrants go.

GL is quite right - those british policemens just picked out some random victim and decided that he had to be murdered. If for no other reason, then just to prove that brutality still is the favour activity of police forces.

	24-07-2005 02:34									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's not funny, but it is incredibly stupid. It's Darwin-award material if he is innocent (which you can bet your sweet ass he's not -- he left a building already under surveillance).

	24-07-2005 02:37									#94
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quote: GL is quite right - those british policemens just picked out some random victim and decided that he had to be murdered. If for no other reason, then just to prove that brutality still is the favour activity of police forces.

By this logic no policeman can do anything wrong...

	24-07-2005 02:39									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Where does it say that in the article? It seems like the cops should've been uniformed too... Without their bright yellow vests, and with guns, they must've looked like terrorists themselves.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...05147_1,00.html

quote: Suspect shot dead 'had no bomb' By Adam Fresco, Rajeev Syal and Steve Bird ARMED undercover police chased and shot dead a man directly linked to the London bombers’ terror cell after he ran into a South London Underground station and tried to board a train. It is understood that he was found not to have been carrying a bomb. Three officers had followed him to Stockwell station after he emerged from a nearby house that police believed to be connected with Thursday’s attempted bombings. The suspect, described as being of Asian appearance and wearing a thick, bulky jacket, vaulted over a ticket barrier when challenged by police and ran down the escalator and along the platform of the Northern Line. When the armed officers reached the platform with their guns drawn, they shouted at everyone to get down. As waiting passengers and those already on a train that had pulled into the station dived to the floor, the suspect jumped on the train. Two witnesses said that as he entered the train he tripped, ending up half in and half out of the carriage, on all fours. Within seconds, as the clock tower outside the station chimed 10am, the officers caught up with the man and pushed him hard to the floor. Witnesses said that they then fired up to five bullets into him at close range, killing him instantly. Anthony Larkin, 30, was waiting on the platform when he saw a man in a black bomber jacket and jeans running towards him being chased by the officers. Mr Larkin, a care assistant, from Hartlepool, Teesside, said: “The officers were shouting, ‘Get down, get down’. I immediately hit the ground. I saw the man fall over and then I heard two shots that I believe went into his back. “There was lots of panicking, people ran screaming out of the station and they were keeping their heads down. I just got up and joined them, running as fast as I could.” Alerted by the bulk of his jacket, police had followed the suspect on foot for some time and became concerned when he approached the Tube station. After the officers were ordered to stop him from entering the station at all costs, they challenged him before he crossed the main road to the station. When they drew their weapons and shouted “Stop, armed police”, the man looked over his shoulder and bolted. He was described as being very fit and agile. After the suspect had been shot police sent a robot to examine the man, because of fears that any device could still prove a danger. But it is understood that no device was found. Police are describing him as an “intimate accomplice of the cell”. His name and address were thought to have been found among the possessions left by the would-be bombers on Thursday. Police sources said he did not live at the address from which he had been followed. Another witness said that the suspect boarded the Tube and attempted to take a hostage before he was shot. Dan Copeland, a Northern Line passenger, told BBC News: “The man burst in through the carriage door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

	24-07-2005 02:40									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Very small bit of evidence? 1) Leaving a building under surveillance as a potential terrorist residence 2) Wearing an excessively bulky jacket on a warm day 3) Fleeing from cops who told him "Stop, armed police"? There's more than just a "small bit of evidence" which says he was likely to be something other than a guy on his way to work...

As I said, living on the same block as a suspect and wearing baggy clothes is hardly evidence for anything. Fleeing from the cops, while maybe a poor choice of action, is not evidence either. But then again, since the cops obviously intended to shoot first and ask questions later... he was probably quite justified in running from them.

	24-07-2005 02:40									#97
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a bit off topoc,
dis have you seen fear factor the one in las vegas? who wins the mazda?

	24-07-2005 02:41									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Where does it say that in the article? It seems like the cops should've been uniformed too... Without their bright yellow vests, and with guns, they must've looked like terrorists themselves.

Yeah, I guess that's why all civilians screamed and made a run for their security when this peson was approached.

	24-07-2005 02:42									#99
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 a bit off topoc, dis have you seen fear factor the one in las vegas? who wins the mazda?

waay off topic. . I don't watch that show, but if you have a question about Vegas, go ahead and ask me.

	24-07-2005 02:42									#100
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isn't wiglaf supposed to be on the side of the fascist police?
I always though right wingers supported the police and military.

	24-07-2005 02:43									#101
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd As I said, living on the same block as a suspect and wearing baggy clothes is hardly evidence for anything.

Same block? No. Same house? Perhaps.

Same house...baggy clothing...running from police who wanted to check out what was in his coat...

Suspicious to be sure. They could either risk him killing dozens of people and maiming hundreds more, or they could take out someone who had a very high risk of being that bomber...and in either case, acting extremely suspiciously for an innocent man.

	24-07-2005 02:43									#102
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Well his "name/address" were not in the remains of the bombs.

quote: The suspect, described as being of Asian appearance and wearing a thick, bulky jacket, vaulted over a ticket barrier when challenged by police and ran down the escalator and along the platform of the Northern Line.

The police should've stopped him WAY before this was possible.

	24-07-2005 02:44									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Same block? No. Same house? Perhaps. Same house...baggy clothing...running from police who wanted to check out what was in his coat... Suspicious to be sure. They could either risk him killing dozens of people and maiming hundreds more, or they could take out someone who had a very high risk of being that bomber...and in either case, acting extremely suspiciously for an innocent man.

so we should shoot to kill any suspicious characters?

	24-07-2005 02:47									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf By this logic no policeman can do anything wrong...

Of course they can, but when you act stupid in the wrong place, you pay the consequences - not stopping when asked by police and running into a subway train is asking for trouble.

	24-07-2005 02:47									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Dis so we should shoot to kill any suspicious characters?

You need to balance out the risks. Seeing as there were no less than 8 Tube bombings in just a period of a week, the risk is quite clearly very real.

He's wearing a very suspicious jacket that could hide a bomb on a warm day. He left a house under surveillance already. He bolts from police who identify themselves and tell him to stop.

Worst case is they don't stop him, and he's another bomber who detonates the bomb killing dozens of truly innocent people.

If they do stop him, worst case is they killed one person who was acting so incredibly stupid given the recent events and contents, that you have to wonder if he was just supposed to be a Martyr to generate further distrust of police in an already nervous nation. If you can't trust the police, who can you trust, etc.

	24-07-2005 02:50									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You need to balance out the risks. Seeing as there were no less than 8 Tube bombings in just a period of a week, the risk is quite clearly very real. He's wearing a very suspicious jacket that could hide a bomb on a warm day. He left a house under surveillance already. He bolts from police who identify themselves and tell him to stop. Worst case is they don't stop him, and he's another bomber who detonates the bomb killing dozens of truly innocent people. If they do stop him, worst case is they killed one person who was acting so incredibly stupid given the recent events and contents, that you have to wonder if he was just supposed to be a Martyr to generate further distrust of police in an already nervous nation. If you can't trust the police, who can you trust, etc.

I'm curious. They said he was an asian. Are they talking about East asians? (orientals). Because that would not be suspicious. Sure they have comitted terrorist attacks in Japan before. But so far they have not done so against London.

And yes I realize I'm racial profiling here.

	24-07-2005 02:51									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm curious. They said he was an asian. Are they talking about East asians? (orientals). Because that would not be suspicious. Sure they have comitted terrorist attacks in Japan before. But so far they have not done so against London. And yes I realize I'm racial profiling here.

One of the four bombers who died on the first attacks was Jamaican...race doesn't really matter.

	24-07-2005 02:56									#108
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Ok, so the point remains. If they had him pinnned down, why did they need to shoot?

Because they thought he had a bomb!

If he presses a detonator, boom! If they shoot him, he can't press it!

Are you willfully blind or just an idiot?

	24-07-2005 02:58									#109
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They thought he had a bomb, so they followed him so loosely they let him into the subway. You realize he was in a crowd when they shot him?

	24-07-2005 03:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Even just a very small bit of evidence would of been nice before they delt out his execution.

How about wearing a bulky jacket on a summer day and running into a subway station after the police yell "Stop! Armed police!"

	24-07-2005 03:02									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf They thought he had a bomb, so they followed him so loosely they let him into the subway. You realize he was in a crowd when they shot him?

They shot him in the head.

They followed him loosely because they were only shadowing him at the time, they were investigating...

They got concerned when he got to the station, since it now looked like he was out to bomb today.

So they tried to intercept him outside the station. But this "innocent" man decided it would be a better idea to bolt and try to make it on a train.

	24-07-2005 03:05									#112
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Wiglaf

quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm curious. They said he was an asian. Are they talking about East asians? (orientals).

They're talking about South Asians (i.e. Pakistani). There are a lot of Pakistanis and Indians in the UK, so Asian tends to mean South Asian.

	24-07-2005 03:07									#113
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turns out the guy was a brazilian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/i...agewanted=print

	24-07-2005 03:09									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They followed him loosely because they were only shadowing him at the time, they were investigating... They got concerned when he got to the station, since it now looked like he was out to bomb today.

Um, if he apparently looked so suspicious and was thought to be carrying a bomb, what the hell were they expecting him to do? Take a walk around the block strapped with explosives?

	24-07-2005 03:10									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf They thought he had a bomb, so they followed him so loosely they let him into the subway. You realize he was in a crowd when they shot him?

Actually, you are destroying your own point.

If it really just was a show of police brutality, how come that they waited so long ?

	24-07-2005 03:15									#116
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Because they were brutal and stupid?

	24-07-2005 03:20									#117
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And why couldn't they shoot him in the leg or shoulder? Most cops are trained to shoot to maim, not kill.

Which cops are those?

Around here they are trained to shoot for centre of body mass.

	24-07-2005 03:21									#118
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The police did not interview him presumably because they wanted to see if he led them to more bombers. (You know those Brazilian terrorists ) Because everyone in London uses mass transport or the bus system, it's probable he was stopped not because he entered the underground but because he was wearing a jacket.

The way to handle that is NOT to have 20 disguised men start shouting "Police" in the subway, follow him until he falls and then kill him in the middle of a crowd. Honestly I cannot think of a worse way to have handled the situation. Have someone on the street investigate his jacket. Anything.

And the way we've been told there was a "direct" link, and now "no link" to terrorism from the Metropolitan police is also indicative of their incompetence.

	24-07-2005 03:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie You know, I'm sure I've seen the Israelis apprehend suspected suicide bombers without leaving their brains on the pavement a good few times. By what Jewery do they accomplish this?

They point assault weapons at the suspect and keep their distance. If the suspect does exactly what he (or she) is told, which includes disarming himself while they continue to point their weapons, the suspect will not be shot.

This guy would have been dead in Israel, and he never would have got near the station.

	24-07-2005 03:31									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Dis so we should shoot to kill any suspicious characters?

Police should shoot to kill a threat to themselves and others.

Man with toy gun, or knife, menaces police. Cop can't tell it's not a real gun, or they are too close to avoid a lunge with the knife. Man with weapon is dead unless he does exactly what the officer tells him to. This just happened near here.

If the suspect acts like a threat, they leave the police very little choice but to treat them as a threat. I won't second guess a cop trying to save his own life, the lives of his partners, and those of the public.