24-07-2005 13:29									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's lucky he wasn't a terrorist. That would just have given Bliar a reason to arm all the UK police. Frankly, I don't like the idea of cops carrying handguns, it isn't necessary.

A rather grandiose surmise. I don't see any reason why Blair would suddenly arm all police.

	24-07-2005 13:40									#152
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A big to Asher for his efforts to hammer some sense to the people here. Given the information the police had at the time, eliminating him was the proper thing to do. An electrician connected with the terrorists, running to the tube from wearing suicide bomber clothes...he even looks middle eastern. The police did exactly what they are paid for.

	24-07-2005 14:19									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Eli He doesnt even look asian.

Funnily enough, nor did the suspected 7/7 suicide bomber who was black.

You incredible fool.

	24-07-2005 14:36									#154
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unibrows

	24-07-2005 14:41									#155
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High price to pay for fare evasion.

	24-07-2005 15:20									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's not funny, but it is incredibly stupid. It's Darwin-award material if he is innocent (which you can bet your sweet ass he's not -- he left a building already under surveillance).

so we've gone from "under charge = guilty" to "being under surveillance = guilty"?

	24-07-2005 15:22									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The suspect, described as being of Asian appearance

and ended up being Brazilian.

way to go British Intelligence

	24-07-2005 15:26									#158
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither This guy would have been dead in Israel, and he never would have got near the station.

not always, on page 2 there is a link to an article about IDF forces stopping a bomber without killing him....

i said it again, lets face the fact that british forces are not properly trained to handle a suicide terrorist....

	24-07-2005 15:30									#159
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG and ended up being Brazilian. way to go British Intelligence

Described by who? A witness, not the police service?

	24-07-2005 15:30									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola "The man was identified by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, described by officers as an electrician on his way to work." Some good citizen is going to be angry about not getting his electirc plug fixed.

	24-07-2005 15:32									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak not to point out the obvious, but if you shoot a suicide bomber in the leg, he would still be able to detonate the bomb

they already had him pinned down PRIOR to shooting him, he wasnt able to move and detonate anything....

	24-07-2005 15:32									#162
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG not always, on page 2 there is a link to an article about IDF forces stopping a bomber without killing him.... i said it again, lets face the fact that british forces are not properly trained to handle a suicide terrorist....

A sample of one is not in anyway useful for drawing such a comparison.


The point stands that the British forces aren't sufficiently trained or equipped, but your reasoning is specious

	24-07-2005 16:24									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse High price to pay for fare evasion.

" NO TICKET ! "

	24-07-2005 17:53									#164
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more innocent deaths on the way

quote: Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair acknowledged that "somebody else could be shot" as the hunt continued, but added "everything is done to make it right". But he said the "shoot to kill" policy for dealing with suspected suicide bombers would remain in force. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," he said. "There is no point in shooting anywhere else if they fall down and detonate it."

from another bbc report

quote: Police followed him as he caught a bus to Stockwell tube station. They said Mr Menezes' apparently bulky clothing added to their suspicions. Some Brazilians find even summer weather in the UK cold and often dress warmly. But cousin Patricia Armani said she did not remember him wearing a padded jacket. "He didn't use to feel cold. In the winter he even walked on the street with T-shirt," she told the BBC Brasil.com

	24-07-2005 18:02									#165
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i said it again, lets face the fact that british forces are not properly trained to handle a suicide terrorist....

Sorry Mark, owner of the site or not, this argument is pointless. By this reasoning, the UK police force should just do nothing until they are trained? They have had 8 bombs go off in two weeks! They can't wait to be properly trained! They need to start acting now (although they should, and probably are, implementing a training program as we speak)!

	24-07-2005 20:40									#166
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quote: A big to Asher for his efforts to hammer some sense to the people here. Given the information the police had at the time, eliminating him was the proper thing to do. An electrician connected with the terrorists, running to the tube from wearing suicide bomber clothes...he even looks middle eastern. The police did exactly what they are paid for.

He was not connected with the terrorists. Why would you think he was? They have said several times there is no link whatsoever. Your problem is that you keep assuming the surveillance was justified.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4712061.stm

quote: The BBC's correspondent in Brazil, Tom Gibb, said Mr Menezes had lived for a time in a slum district of Sao Paulo and that could explain why he had run from the police. He said: "The murder rates in some of these slums are worse than in a lot of war zones and that could explain why, when plain clothes officers pulled a gun on him, he may have run away."

Kuci claims that the police only had a split second to determine what was going on. This guy might've thought this was some sort of attack on him, or maybe he knew it was the police and thought they found out he owned some pot. He's the one who had a split second to decide what to do, not the armed police who were watching him from his house.

The police are idiots.

	24-07-2005 21:01									#167
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He wouldn't have bolted for holding pot, considering that it is not even an arrestable offence these days.

	24-07-2005 21:10									#168
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Yeah, but life in Brazil is different. Perhaps City of God might be a good refference on what life is like in the slums of Brazil. The cops are often corrupt and in league with the gangs. Even little kids can be dangerous.

	24-07-2005 21:11									#169
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so he bolted. big deal. if you see some guys in plain clothes running after you holding a gun wouldnt you have bolted?
if he was a comme -il -fault briton (no idea what is that) would he had been killed? my guess is no. he looked "asian" ( ). he was wearing a coat, shoot him down!
naturally the not comme il fault britons will be scared. i think they are right to be?

	24-07-2005 21:55									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Sorry Mark, owner of the site or not, this argument is pointless. By this reasoning, the UK police force should just do nothing until they are trained? They have had 8 bombs go off in two weeks! They can't wait to be properly trained! They need to start acting now (although they should, and probably are, implementing a training program as we speak)!

did i say that they should do nothing?

i just said that what they did was due to lack of proper training. and i do believe that this should be admitted by the Police instead of preemptively excusing themselves for future killings

	24-07-2005 22:26									#171
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Face it guys, even Wiglaf says it was excessive and unecessary force.

The police f'd up, big time. Now someone is dead. No amount of apologizing or rationalizing his actions is going to bring him back. We as a society pay billions to train these people not to F up so royally. So when they do, its no one's fault but theirs.

	25-07-2005 00:09									#172
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG they already had him pinned down PRIOR to shooting him, he wasnt able to move and detonate anything....

That's interesting, where did anyone ever say he was pinned?

He wasn't pinned, he fell down and the police caught up and shot him in the head.

You're pulling stuff out of your ass to try to make a case, repeatedly...

	25-07-2005 00:11									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf He was not connected with the terrorists. Why would you think he was? They have said several times there is no link whatsoever. Your problem is that you keep assuming the surveillance was justified. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4712061.stm

They said there was no link well after the shooting took place, Wiggy.

Given what the police knew at the time -- that he left a house under surveillance wearing a bulky jacket and bolted when confronted, they had every reason to be suspicious.

You guys need to figure out the difference between hindsight and the decisions you have to make instantly when the lives of dozens of people are on the line, yours included.

	25-07-2005 00:12									#174
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Face it guys, even Wiglaf says it was excessive and unecessary force.

And since Wiglaf has never been right about anything in his history -- and I'm willing to believe it's someone's joke AE to take ridiculous positions and troll with it -- I don't think that helps your side...

	25-07-2005 00:13									#175
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 so he bolted. big deal. if you see some guys in plain clothes running after you holding a gun wouldnt you have bolted?

If half a dozen people in plain clothes draw their gun on me and say "STOP! ARMED POLICE!" directly at me, the last thing I would do would is try to run on a train just after they were bombed.

	25-07-2005 00:33									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's interesting, where did anyone ever say he was pinned? He wasn't pinned, he fell down and the police caught up and shot him in the head. You're pulling stuff out of your ass to try to make a case, repeatedly...

Oh really? How about an eyewitness who was several feet away when it happened:

quote: Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706787.stm Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers". "One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

Whether he was right or wrong, you're pulling just as much **** out of your ass, so get off your high horse.

	25-07-2005 01:40									#177
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quote: You guys need to figure out the difference between hindsight and the decisions you have to make instantly when the lives of dozens of people are on the line, yours included.

There's something very dangerous and unfair about the police chosing to stop suspects at a location that operates under different rules of engagement. If the man had been forced down a side-street, this would be a nuisance. Why not investigate his coat there?

Asher, armed and plainclothes police are extremely rare in London. That there were apparently twenty of them shouting would scare anyone. It is entirely possible that this Brazilian immigrant was simply afraid, not stupid, especially since it's apparent he had no terrorist connections.

I'd be pretty upset if a bunch of guys, guns drawn, told me to get on the floor. Looks more like a hold-up than a police operation.

	25-07-2005 02:32									#178
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Yeah, but would you run or would you do what they say?

	25-07-2005 02:49									#179
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quote: Whether he was right or wrong, you're pulling just as much **** out of your ass, so get off your high horse.

Your quote doesn't say he was pinned, you need to learn to read my man.

	25-07-2005 02:54									#180
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quote: they pushed him to the floor,