24-07-2005 03:59									#121
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Which cops are those? Around here they are trained to shoot for centre of body mass.

You're right. Whenever a cop pulls a trigger, someone dies.

Has anyone considered that, since it was a crowded station, when the cops yelled "police!", the suspect thought someone else was about to blow the place up? Especially given recent events? I would have run too.

Why would he assume the police were talking to him, considering that he was innocent?

	24-07-2005 04:15									#122
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You're right. Whenever a cop pulls a trigger, someone dies. Has anyone considered that, since it was a crowded station, when the cops yelled "police!", the suspect thought someone else was about to blow the place up? Especially given recent events? I would have run too. Why would he assume the police were talking to him, considering that he was innocent?

That is really the most pure BS that I have seen here.

Police waepons isn't supposed to kill people - they are to stop people from what they are doing.

If this person really thought that there was a bomb threat, then please tell me why he ran away from the police and into a place where the danger was higher.

If he just had done as the police had asked, he would have been alive today.

	24-07-2005 04:16									#123
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Because of course this entire argument ran through the police's heads just in the few seconds it took hindsight is 20-20

	24-07-2005 04:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat That is really the most pure BS that I have seen here. Police waepons isn't supposed to kill people - they are to stop people from what they are doing. If this person really thought that there was a bomb threat, then please tell me why he ran away from the police and into a place where the danger was higher. If he just had done as the police had asked, he would have been alive today.

But why would he assume the police were addressing him since... he didn't have a bomb?

The police messed up. It happens.

	24-07-2005 04:56									#125
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I think it's safe to say from the description of the dead guy's actions that he knew the police were after him...

	24-07-2005 05:13									#126
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Well done to the Police. They did what they had to do given the information they had. There is nothing tragic about this.

	24-07-2005 05:24									#127
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Which cops are those? Around here they are trained to shoot for centre of body mass.

The cops were told, specifically, that to take out suicide bombers you aim for and shoot for the head -- NOT the torso. Explosive belts tend to go around the torso, and shooting explosives with bullets may not be the smartest thing to do when trying to prevent an explosion.

	24-07-2005 05:26									#128
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn You're right. Whenever a cop pulls a trigger, someone dies. Has anyone considered that, since it was a crowded station, when the cops yelled "police!", the suspect thought someone else was about to blow the place up? Especially given recent events? I would have run too.

Wait a second -- when someone yells "POLICE" in London, after 8 different bombs went off on their public transit system -- your first instinct would be to run in the station, jump turnstiles, and try to get on the train?

	24-07-2005 05:28									#129
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn But why would he assume the police were addressing him since... he didn't have a bomb? The police messed up. It happens.

In the witness reports, he was said to look back at the police who had all raised their guns and were presumably looking right at him and shouting at him.

He then ran further into the station, jumped turnstiles, and tried to get ON the train.

The police didn't mess up here, the guy clearly messed up. The police acted appropriately given what they knew, and how the knob was acting.

His stupidity got himself killed. Similarly, a kid pulling a fake gun on a cop may just get him killed.

When police feel they are threatened, or the public is threatened, they should act on it. Period. All of this retrospective bullshit is irrelevant in their actions. They can only act on what they know at the time, none of this crap that comes up days later.

	24-07-2005 05:44									#130
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First of all, only one witness said he vaulted over the barrier. No police report, BBC or CNN report confirms that. All of this is based on a lot of speculation.

quote: The police acted appropriately given what they knew

This is the only statement I can really take issue with. If you suspect he's a bomber, you stop him out of his house, not in the middle of the subway. It's that simple. Who knows why he ran - maybe he was a pot dealer? If you're the police, you find that out in a secure environment.

	24-07-2005 06:04									#131
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"The man was identified by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, described by officers as an electrician on his way to work." Some good citizen is going to be angry about not getting his electirc plug fixed.

	24-07-2005 06:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf - maybe he was a pot dealer?.

If he was that, he would know that the most stupid thing he could do would be runing into a subway train.

	24-07-2005 06:39									#133
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And why couldn't they shoot him in the leg or shoulder? Most cops are trained to shoot to maim, not kill.

Guns are considered leathal force, not less than leathal. If a cop draws his gun, he feels the situation has escalated to the point where lethal force may be warranted.

Cops are trained to kill with their handguns. That is why they carry other weapons (Battons, TAZER, pepper spray, etc).

Personally, I do have a bit of an issue with them killing a subject that was in custody, but that is because I haven't had 8 bombs go off in my jurisdiction in two weeks. Perhaps I'd feel different in that circumstance. And, thinking about it, and listening to Asher's (of all people) arguements, I'd probably say it was justified.

	24-07-2005 06:58									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The cops were told, specifically, that to take out suicide bombers you aim for and shoot for the head -- NOT the torso. Explosive belts tend to go around the torso, and shooting explosives with bullets may not be the smartest thing to do when trying to prevent an explosion.

Of course. However they are trained to shoot for centre of mass, and that trying to wound by taking out a limb is likely to get them (and others) killed because it is too easy to miss.

A head shot with a pistol at any distance is far from certain. On a crowded street, or station, you are liable to kill a bystander.

As long as this poor fellow was running, the safest thing to do was chase him. Once they caught up with him, given what they knew at the time, the safest thing to do was put a bullet in his head.

That doesn't stop me from feeling bad for the guy and his family. His death should have been unnecessary. However, he was the one in a position to control the necessity and he blew it. I can't blame the British police for it even though I am quite sure that the issue of the five shots may raise some eyebrows internally.

	24-07-2005 07:10									#135
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not to point out the obvious, but if you shoot a suicide bomber in the leg, he would still be able to detonate the bomb

	24-07-2005 07:10									#136
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It's lucky he wasn't a terrorist. That would just have given Bliar a reason to arm all the UK police. Frankly, I don't like the idea of cops carrying handguns, it isn't necessary.

But it's nice to see Poly's resident psychopaths cheering at this man's death.

	24-07-2005 07:17									#137
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Unless I'm wrong, then you are the first that cheers the killing of this guy.

	24-07-2005 07:32									#138
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Unless I'm wrong, then you are the first that cheers the killing of this guy.

Not really, I just think it would have been worse if he were a terrorist. The one thing that the Libertarians are spot on about is that many people in authority tend to get quite cavalier about giving themselves more power over other people's lives. All sorts of draconian measures like national ID cards are foisted on a public if they can be made afraid enough. Many Americans have at least had the brains to notice that their current government is busy withdrawing basic social freedoms in the name of security. There's no point in such security if life is worse with it.

You know what's weird? In Toronto, I have met many people who are actually afraid of the police. At home people may resent the police, and criminals obviously see them as a hindrance, but no-one is afraid of them because they don't carry guns. I've seen the NZ police do some pretty shitty and unprovoked things to people, but their and our lives are made easier by them not carrying guns. That means that when mistakes are made, they tend to be reparable, and that situations tend not to escalate out of control.

	24-07-2005 07:38									#139
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If you associate with criminals, you likely know people who are afraid of the police.

	24-07-2005 07:42									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You know what's weird? In Toronto, I have met many people who are actually afraid of the police. At home people may resent the police, and criminals obviously see them as a hindrance, but no-one is afraid of them because they don't carry guns. I've seen the NZ police do some pretty shitty and unprovoked things to people, but their and our lives are made easier by them not carrying guns. That means that when mistakes are made, they tend to be reparable, and that situations tend not to escalate out of control.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

	24-07-2005 07:47									#141
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I don't think it is feasible to have a police force not carrying guns when our culture has a large place for guns in it, and 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the largest weapons market in the world.

	24-07-2005 07:47									#142
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If you associate with criminals, you likely know people who are afraid of the police.

No. I don't know any criminals in TO. I do know a few petty crims in NZ (old high school mates), and I've known a few dodgy people in my time. None of them are afraid of the cops. They dislike and resent them, but there is no fear.

	24-07-2005 07:49									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Not really, I just think it would have been worse if he were a terrorist. The one thing that the Libertarians are spot on about is that many people in authority tend to get quite cavalier about giving themselves more power over other people's lives. All sorts of draconian measures like national ID cards are foisted on a public if they can be made afraid enough. Many Americans have at least had the brains to notice that their current government is busy withdrawing basic social freedoms in the name of security. There's no point in such security if life is worse with it. You know what's weird? In Toronto, I have met many people who are actually afraid of the police. At home people may resent the police, and criminals obviously see them as a hindrance, but no-one is afraid of them because they don't carry guns. I've seen the NZ police do some pretty shitty and unprovoked things to people, but their and our lives are made easier by them not carrying guns. That means that when mistakes are made, they tend to be reparable, and that situations tend not to escalate out of control.

I think that you are speking pure BS - bad statement , but ir's 4:44 here and I need sleep gonna killl ya tomorow

	24-07-2005 07:51									#144
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I am not afraid of the cops, and even people I know who have been in brawls with cops are not afraid of them. I have never heard anyone say they are afraid of the cops.

Now, TO has a problem of a different sort, IIRC. It has little to do with police being armed but more to do with the attitude of some of the force.

Besides, when I said associating with criminals, I was commenting on NZs proximity to Australia. Duh!

	24-07-2005 07:57									#145
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quote: Now, TO has a problem of a different sort, IIRC. It has little to do with police being armed but more to do with the attitude of some of the force.

You are probably right.

quote: Besides, when I said associating with criminals, I was commenting on NZs proximity to Australia. Duh!

	24-07-2005 09:16									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola "The man was identified by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, described by officers as an electrician on his way to work."

Oh, dear. Not only is this guy not a terrorist, he's not even close to being a terrorist.

	24-07-2005 09:24									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Oh, dear. Not only is this guy not a terrorist, he's not even close to being a terrorist.

Electricians are further from being a terrorists than other people?

One of the guys was a chemical PhD.

Wouldn't it be funny if the chemical PhD guy made the compounds and the electrician wired them

^^^^ hypothetically of course

(as a sidenote, another one of the suicide bombers was a teaching assistant for developmentally disabled children -- is he also not even close to being a terrorist?)

	24-07-2005 12:09									#148
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He doesnt even look asian.

	24-07-2005 12:22									#149
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I'll bet his 'bulky' coat was nothing of the sort.

	24-07-2005 12:36									#150
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It's unfortunate, but running from armed police is never going to be the smartest thing to do when they want you to stop, especially considering recent events.