25-07-2005 02:56									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yeah, but would you run or would you do what they say?

I can't be sure. Assuming all I saw was guys with guns saying "Hey!" or "Everybody down," I might. Sure, they said they were police, but it's not clear when. And, if I'm innocent, I'd wonder why they'd be talking to me.

	25-07-2005 04:07									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf

Pushing to the floor means pinning?

	25-07-2005 04:18									#183
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i just said that what they did was due to lack of proper training. and i do believe that this should be admitted by the Police instead of preemptively excusing themselves for future killings

Right. Had they been better trained and prepared, they would have had a couple of snipers on hand, and the guy would have been dead by headshot before he got into the station.

Would that be better?

	25-07-2005 04:34									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Pushing to the floor means pinning?

He probably meant to bold the "bundled on top of him" part as well. Come on Asher, you could have worked that out for yourself

	25-07-2005 04:35									#185
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Right. Had they been better trained and prepared, they would have had a couple of snipers on hand, and the guy would have been dead by headshot before he got into the station.

no, if they were better trained, they would have arrested him without killing him, like the IDF (sometimes) does

	25-07-2005 05:09									#186
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am i the only one who liked markos better when he was whining about the name of a small country, rather than making idiotic comments about our police :/

	25-07-2005 05:10									#187
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You mean like when the IDF member gives a command and the suspect does exactly what he or she is told?

Otherwise, they blow them away, Marc.

	25-07-2005 05:22									#188
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already posted on this thread...

quote: IDF forces and the police arrested a suicide bomber on Friday who infiltrated Israel from the Gaza Strip. The bomber, an 18-year old youth, and resident of Jabaliya, was in posession of a 5 kilogram suicide bomb belt. Security analysts believe he was heading for central Israel and wanted to blow himself up at a target packed with people. An additional man, apparently the bomber's operator, left Gaza with the suspect. After a number of hours the operator was caught in Jaffa and arrested by security forces. (Hanan Greenberg)

	25-07-2005 05:23									#189
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I bet you he didn't try to run into a crowded subway station when they arrested him.

	25-07-2005 05:25									#190
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quote: Palestinian sources said Friday that Israeli troops had arrested a Tul Karm resident who was on route to carrying out a suicide bombing inside Israel.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...SubContrassID=0

	25-07-2005 05:27									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I bet you he didn't try to run into a crowded subway station when they arrested him.

	25-07-2005 05:27									#192
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...05/s1357370.htm

quote: Israeli security forces have arrested a suspected would-be suicide bomber in the West Bank city of Tulkarm.

looking forward to hearing something like that from the british forces...

	25-07-2005 05:29									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I bet you he didn't try to run into a crowded subway station when they arrested him.

	25-07-2005 05:35									#194
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do they have subways in israel?

	25-07-2005 05:35									#195
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG already posted on this thread... quote: IDF forces and the police arrested a suicide bomber on Friday who infiltrated Israel from the Gaza Strip. The bomber, an 18-year old youth, and resident of Jabaliya, was in posession of a 5 kilogram suicide bomb belt. Security analysts believe he was heading for central Israel and wanted to blow himself up at a target packed with people. An additional man, apparently the bomber's operator, left Gaza with the suspect. After a number of hours the operator was caught in Jaffa and arrested by security forces. (Hanan Greenberg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_Barrier

quote: August 29, 2004: A suicide bombing at the Karni crossing is thwarted after an IDF Combat engineering force identifies 3 militants approaching from the south. The force opens fire killing one man. A Kalachnikov, 4 magazines, 2 frag grenades and explosive belt are found on the corpse of the dead militant.

	25-07-2005 05:36									#196
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG do they have subways in israel?

Apparently.

	25-07-2005 05:39									#197
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...05/s1357370.htm quote: Israeli security forces have arrested a suspected would-be suicide bomber in the West Bank city of Tulkarm. looking forward to hearing something like that from the british forces...

You think the Brits have not arrested anyone? They are shooting them all?

	25-07-2005 05:40									#198
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Its Markos. He has a vendetta against the Brits because of the Elgin Marbles.

	25-07-2005 05:42									#199
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Here, he can have some.

	25-07-2005 05:43									#200
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The problem is that there are going to be a dozen incidents a day like this if the police do it as a practice. People get scared and enter a state of "flight or fright" – they then proceed to behave irrationally. It's a lot worse when people are living in a foreign country and don't yet understand the cultural cues. If you don't believe this, then my Dad knew loads of British seamen who came near to being shot in Argentina because they simply didn't know the appropriate way to respond to the police. It nearly happened to him once.

If a group of ordinarily dressed people started yelling in Yorkdale subway station, I'd probably think it was a gang, and I'd probably run myself. If I saw guns drawn, I wouldn't know what to do. If someone yells that they're a cop, sometimes they aren't. The sad thing is that the police know this: that's why car chases are generally avoided now. Sure some villains might get away, but a lot less people end up dying.

That guy could be any of us. I have to laugh at some of the dweebs here who are calling this guy a loser. Based on your attitudes here, most of you would **** your pants in such a situation. This was a failure of police policy. The officer should never have been placed in such a situation, and neither should the victim. Saying that people should just put up with incidents like this in the name of security actually makes us less secure and makes the police more prone to mistakes.

	25-07-2005 05:44									#201
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Israel is a really bad example, by the way. Don't they shoot many times as many innocent people as they do bombers?

	25-07-2005 05:45									#202
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http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:raywnwYc4ScJ:www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/590104...de+bomber&hl=en

quote: IDF kills Palestinian teen near Netzarim In a separate incident in Gaza, IDF troops shot dead an unarmed 17-year-old Palestinian and wounded another youth near a road between the border and the settlement of Netzarim, Palestinian medics said. The IDF said the two Palestinians had entered a restricted military zone and ignored an order given through loudspeakers to leave. Soldiers fired warning shots and then towards the legs of one of the Palestinians before the two ran off, it said.

	25-07-2005 06:00									#203
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That's just fubared.

	25-07-2005 06:01									#204
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No. That's what happens when you ignore the commands of armed police or soldiers.

	25-07-2005 06:19									#205
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Thank you El Presidente.

In countries that have any sort of respect for human life, the police aren't customarily allowed to open fire just because citizens don't listen to them. A policy that leads to far more innocent people being gunned down than actual criminals is in need of modification.

In the real world, many ordinary innocent people do not act "rationally" when they have guns pointed at them, just as many ordinary people don't act rationally when the police ask them to pull over. Having lax policies on when the police may open fire is just daft and leads to worse outcomes. Even the police know this. I'm surprised that you don't.

	25-07-2005 06:22									#206
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. That's what happens when you ignore the commands of armed police or soldiers.

Wow

In many of these cases, the fault is with the police, not the victim. In London, the police were in plainclothes and shouted in the underground. In your example, the boys were let in a restricted area. Both are bad procedure.

	25-07-2005 06:23									#207
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Bull.

Stand in front of a cop with a gun (or a knife) and ignore his commands to drop it. See what happens in Toronto, New York, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, etc., etc...

	25-07-2005 06:25									#208
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Now act like a suicide bomber in a city that has had eight attacks in the last few weeks, and ignore the police when they give you instructions.

You'd be dead anywhere from Vancouver to Tel Aviv.

	25-07-2005 06:26									#209
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Do you not know about the "Fight or Flight" response, NYE? It has been proven to make people less aware of a situation and more likely to endanger themselves. For example:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...v23/ai_10844219

This is what happens when people are confronted with stressful situations. Their rational faculties shut down and they run like hell. There's nothing wrong with them, it is perfectly natural. If the police shot at everyone who didn't obey orders, the death rate would be far higher than the terrorists could hope to achieve by themselves.

And what goes for civilians goes for cops too. They are less likely to act rationally in stressful situations. That's why it's not really their fault either. They need to be well-trained and aware of the limitations that their own bodies put on them in these situations.

	25-07-2005 06:29									#210
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As I said earlier, I feel bad for this guy and his family.

At the same time, I do not feel the police did anything wrong.

It's a **** situation, and this guy got it all over him.