01-09-2005 01:05									#421
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Fire in the French Quarter...

	01-09-2005 01:10									#422
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Car ownership in the US is not driven only be income, but by geography. Whilel i expect many poor residents of New Orleans lack cars, I would expect the proportion to be considerable lower in Biloxi or Gulfport, as those are small cities, where car ownership costs are relatively low, and transit is probably very limited.

When I first lived in Jacksonville, FL, i wondered why there were so many ads for discount auto parts chains, emphasizing that they were open 7 days a week. Till I realized that that was how poor folks managed to own autos - they bought cheap old ones, and fixed them themselves. Which meant the price of parts was a very large portion of their ownership costs. And having the auto parts store open 7 days a week, was their equivalent of having an auto repair shop open 7 days a week. If they needed a part on Sunday, and they couldnt buy it, and at a discount price, on Sunday, that meant they werent going anywhere till Monday.

	01-09-2005 01:13									#423
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Car ownership in the US is not driven only be income, but by geography. Whilel i expect many poor residents of New Orleans lack cars, I would expect the proportion to be considerable lower in Biloxi or Gulfport, as those are small cities, where car ownership costs are relatively low, and transit is probably very limited. When I first lived in Jacksonville, FL, i wondered why there were so many ads for discount auto parts chains, emphasizing that they were open 7 days a week. Till I realized that that was how poor folks managed to own autos - they bought cheap old ones, and fixed them themselves. Which meant the price of parts was a very large portion of their ownership costs. And having the auto parts store open 7 days a week, was their equivalent of having an auto repair shop open 7 days a week. If they needed a part on Sunday, and they couldnt buy it, and at a discount price, on Sunday, that meant they werent going anywhere till Monday.

exactly. most people own cars in my city. Even poor people. They often neglect other important things so they can ride in a car with a booming stereo (yes even poor people have these). But they live in slums.

The people who do not own cars are older mexican immigrants, druggies who choose drugs over tranportation, and people who are too stupid to figure out how to save $1000.

	01-09-2005 01:14									#424
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They're going to move the people from the Superdome in New Orleans by bus to the Astrodome in Houston. It's a 7 hour bus ride and many of the folks in there are elderly and ill.

But on a more basic level, it's no solution at all. In fact, it's moronic. They're just gonna store these people until they figure out what to do with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up a first class riot on their hands.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/natio...ns20050831.html

	01-09-2005 01:16									#425
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Car ownership in the US is not driven only be income, but by geography. Whilel i expect many poor residents of New Orleans lack cars, I would expect the proportion to be considerable lower in Biloxi or Gulfport, as those are small cities, where car ownership costs are relatively low, and transit is probably very limited. When I first lived in Jacksonville, FL, i wondered why there were so many ads for discount auto parts chains, emphasizing that they were open 7 days a week. Till I realized that that was how poor folks managed to own autos - they bought cheap old ones, and fixed them themselves. Which meant the price of parts was a very large portion of their ownership costs. And having the auto parts store open 7 days a week, was their equivalent of having an auto repair shop open 7 days a week. If they needed a part on Sunday, and they couldnt buy it, and at a discount price, on Sunday, that meant they werent going anywhere till Monday.

Quibble all you want, the point is that the estimate of hundreds of thousands of people without cars in the affected area is reasonable.

	01-09-2005 01:17									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Dis exactly. most people own cars in my city. Even poor people. They often neglect other important things so they can ride in a car with a booming stereo (yes even poor people have these). But they live in slums. The people who do not own cars are older mexican immigrants, druggies who choose drugs over tranportation, and people who are too stupid to figure out how to save $1000.

The ramblings of a fool.

	01-09-2005 01:20									#427
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh The ramblings of a fool.

**** off. Have you ever been to Las Vegas. I suppose you know more about my city than I do. Come here, and you will see how many cars there are. And yes I realize Las Vegas is not the gulf coast.

But guess what *******. I lived on the gulf coast also. Have you been there?

	01-09-2005 01:23									#428
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh They're going to move the people from the Superdome in New Orleans by bus to the Astrodome in Houston. It's a 7 hour bus ride and many of the folks in there are elderly and ill. But on a more basic level, it's no solution at all. In fact, it's moronic. They're just gonna store these people until they figure out what to do with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up a first class riot on their hands. http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/natio...ns20050831.html

It's better than keeping them in the superdome...what else are you going to do with them? FEMA says they have plans for temporary housing, but it will take time to set it up...

	01-09-2005 01:24									#429
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all he can do is critisize. He has no useful ideas for himself. The astrodome is not that bad an idea. For a temporary solution, it's an excellent idea.

	01-09-2005 01:25									#430
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Irony of the day: They can't get water to fight the fire.

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	01-09-2005 01:38									#431
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Aren't there a lot of empty military barracks, now that all the troops are abroad? There you have beds, lockers, showers, cantinas etc. Must be a lot better than sleeping on the floor of a sports arena.

	01-09-2005 01:38									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Dis The people who do not own cars are older mexican immigrants, druggies who choose drugs over tranportation, and people who are too stupid to figure out how to save $1000.

These days, who needs to save $1000? We've got credit cards to spend spend spend....

	01-09-2005 01:38									#433
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I hereby admit I was wrong (only the second time - the other was when I was wrong about Jessica Lynch- remember her?).

The mayor of New Orleans has now said the death toll in his city is in the thousands. I really did not think it would be that high.

But I still blame Fox news. They said New Orleans had been spared. I figured I could watch them for this kind of news since it's not really a biased story. I haven't been happy with Fox coverage. I've actually preferred MSNBC coverage for once (I normally hate MSNBC).

Thousands of deaths. That's just amazing. Andrew was more powerful, but really didn't kill that many people (at least not compared to this one). Did the waters really rise so fast? How did so many people die in New Orleans? Why didn't the Mississippi coast evacuate better?

	01-09-2005 01:39									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Aren't there a lot of empty military barracks, now that all the troops are abroad? There you have beds, lockers, showers, cantinas etc. Must be a lot better than sleeping on the floor of a sports arena.

I don't want anyone who's been wading in raw sewage sleeping on my rack.

	01-09-2005 01:40									#435
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quote: Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi Irony of the day: They can't get water to fight the fire.

That makes no sense-- I can see flooded equipment failing but lack of water should never be an issue. The fire trucks I used ALWAYS had two forms of water intake-- one was for hydrants while another would give just as much supply of water in any place with a water depth of more than 2 and a half feet. Ponds, brooks, even an irrigation ditch could serve.

	01-09-2005 01:44									#436
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh They're going to move the people from the Superdome in New Orleans by bus to the Astrodome in Houston. It's a 7 hour bus ride and many of the folks in there are elderly and ill.

CNN:


"Evacuees with special problems already have been evacuated to hospitals in other Louisiana cities, but the 23,000 people now confined to the stuffy, smelly Superdome, as well as some other refugees will go to Houston, about 350 miles away."

	01-09-2005 01:45									#437
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I would assume the astrodome is the staging area - you have to let people off the bus somewhere - before alternate arrangements are made.

I dont think you can just put people in active military bases, as there are security restrictions there.

	01-09-2005 01:45									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber That makes no sense-- I can see flooded equipment failing but lack of water should never be an issue. The fire trucks I used ALWAYS had two forms of water intake-- one was for hydrants while another would give just as much supply of water in any place with a water depth of more than 2 and a half feet. Ponds, brooks, even an irrigation ditch could serve.

Well, that's what I was thinking, but that's what the firefighters were telling CNN...

	01-09-2005 01:48									#439
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quote: Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi Well, that's what I was thinking, but that's what the firefighters were telling CNN...

I'm not familiar with civilian firefighting equipment. But in the navy you can actually take take suction from flooded compartments (on a ship) with various equipment (educters and pumps etc).

	01-09-2005 01:49									#440
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I don't want anyone who's been wading in raw sewage sleeping on my rack.

Wading through a very yucky ditch is included in the initiation ritual for the Swedish Coastal Rangers (=our 1337 amphibic infantry). You won't get your beret if you refuse.

And it's not your rack, you only borrowed it from the government. You don't know what filth has been going on under the sheets before you were assigned to that bunk.

	01-09-2005 01:52									#441
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Mobius: It is obvious that you haven't visited DC, dude. Or were blind when you visited it.

I'm sure you do very well out of it...

Actually I was pretty shocked getting out at Chinatown - you sort of knew that there was almost 100% certainty something bad would happen to you if you took the wrong turn...

Looking the one way kinda reminded me of the way the road the Hobbits were on in Fellowship of the Ring suddenly turns really sinister the first time they meet the Nazgul...

But NO made DC feel like the Garden of Eden by comparison...

	01-09-2005 01:54									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi Well, that's what I was thinking, but that's what the firefighters were telling CNN...

Perhaps urban fire trucks are set up such that they are dependent on fire hydrants but our trucks in rural Newfoundland had no problem using any standing water source. The volunteer brigades trained to use them since any forest fighting operation would be unlikely to be near a hydrant plus many many homes were outside the area of hydrants.

Besides the trucks, we also had a number of portable pumps that could also work off of a hydrant or standing water. less powerful than a truck, they could still supply two --- inch and a half attack lines. heck our town of 2500 had 4 of these portable pumps (again the major reason was to increase ability to fight forest fires)

	01-09-2005 01:54									#443
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I would assume the astrodome is the staging area - you have to let people off the bus somewhere - before alternate arrangements are made.

It's also got showers, plumbing and air conditioning, so if it takes them a number of days to figure things out, they're far better there.

	01-09-2005 01:55									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber That makes no sense-- I can see flooded equipment failing but lack of water should never be an issue. The fire trucks I used ALWAYS had two forms of water intake-- one was for hydrants while another would give just as much supply of water in any place with a water depth of more than 2 and a half feet. Ponds, brooks, even an irrigation ditch could serve.

Is it possible that this is one of the types of fire that can't be put out by water? Or maybe that the "toxic water" is less suitable than normal water?

	01-09-2005 01:56									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I'm not familiar with civilian firefighting equipment. But in the navy you can actually take take suction from flooded compartments (on a ship) with various equipment (educters and pumps etc).

Well our volunteer brigade could get source water from ANY standing water source with sufficient depth-- and that was 1970s and 1980s equipment (Fire trucks can last a LOOONG time-- we had a 1950s model that worked any bigger fire))

	01-09-2005 01:58									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Well our volunteer brigade could get source water from ANY standing water source with sufficient depth

Yeah, that's how ours work too. Generally they have to work off their tanks, though, then run off to a nearby stream to fill up. I think theres a fire hydrant about 15 miles from here, but I'm pretty close to the big city, ya know...

	01-09-2005 01:59									#447
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On a side note, the D-day Museum's web site is not accessible at the moment. Perhaps they have the server in the museum. What artifacts and collections did they keep there anyway? Have those pieces of close-past history now been destroyed?

	01-09-2005 02:02									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Is it possible that this is one of the types of fire that can't be put out by water?

Possible-- but they should have some alternate equipment for those types of fires regardless of the flooding (although perhaps mobilizing it is the problem)

quote: Originally posted by Edan Or maybe that the "toxic water" is less suitable than normal water?

Perhaps-- although the only real problems would be if the water contained concentrations of of flammable materials or something toxic when burned. But the quatities of water are huge so I don't see a big problem ( but am no expert )-- I'm thinking that even a gasoline sheen on the water would not hurt your ability to use it for firefighting if your intakes are 4-5 feet below the surface

	01-09-2005 02:02									#449
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Ah, now they're using the floodwater on the fire. Weird.

	01-09-2005 02:05									#450
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Fighting fires is not all, and in fact is one of the lesser worries on water.
Lack of water to drink seems more ironic to me.

Cajuns are arriving in Dallas. Arriving in Houston.
Cities are providing all possible, with the exception of crawdads.
No one can keep Cajuns in supply.