04-09-2005 23:32									#241
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No, I agree, Sava. But everybody was doing their press conferences (the mayor included) at that time.

	04-09-2005 23:35									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I have pointed this out in several threads. Though I haven't seen any reports of people dieing of this either. All the deaths I have heard about are directly from the flooding/winds/collapsing buildings/storm surge, nothing fromt he aftermath.

Well I haven't seen any reports about a constant stream of Blackhawks dropping loads of supplies at the superdome...

quote: And the levies did not break because of the hurricane itself, whatever CAT it was. The flooding along the Mississipi as the storm moved in is what broke the WEAKER levies on the inland side. The seaside levies withstood the hurricane as designed.

Are you really this stupid!?

You are spouting UTTER BULLSHIT!!!

Any flooding along the Mississippi DID NOT break levees along its banks!!! Utter fantasy!

Two of the levees that broke are in Lake Ponchartrain, which is directly exposed to the sea in the East!

The other one is the Industrial canal breach whose location leads me to believe that the storm surge travelled up the canal and broke through at the bend at the city end...

So at worst you are exposed for lying through your face or just plain making stuff up - at best for being an idiot who can't even read a map properly (unbelievable for someone who claims to be in the navy!)...

Either way - I won't be believing another thing you write without independent verification in triplicate!

	04-09-2005 23:36									#243
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why couldn't FEMA watch tv?

The TV was reporting all sorts of rumor as fact at that time. Relying on the news was worse than useless then.

	04-09-2005 23:36									#244
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why wasn't the mayor telling FEMA about the 25,000 people? This wasn't FEMA's operation at that time. As you can see, FEMA only gets its ass in gear on day 4 or so.

Oh, there's more than enough blame to go around for the communications **** up. But the media was reporting that there were ten shelters set up since sunday, and the media had been reporting about the Convention center for days before FEMA decided to get their head out of their ass

	04-09-2005 23:39									#245
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I don't remember them reporting about the Convention Center until later in the week. In any event, I didn't even know there was a difference between the Convention Center and the Superdome. The FEMA folks probably didn't either, since they aren't locals. It didn't seem like the press figured that out until late in the game either.

	04-09-2005 23:41									#246
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quote: Well I haven't seen any reports about a constant stream of Blackhawks dropping loads of supplies at the superdome...

Considering there has been 24 hour news camera footage of it for the last week, it doesn's suprise me that you ignored that with all the other facts.

quote: Two of the levees that broke are in Lake Ponchartrain, which is directly exposed to the sea in the East!

But not in the direct path of a storm surge, and again to the NE of the city, thank you come again.

quote: The other one is the Industrial canal breach whose location leads me to believe that the storm surge travelled up the canal and broke through at the bend at the city end...

Again, behind the city. Out of curiousity, you do know that the levies didn't break until after the storm has passed right? Surely someone as detail oriented as you would have figured that out.

Poor poor sheep.

	04-09-2005 23:42									#247
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In any event, I didn't even know there was a difference between the Convention Center and the Superdome. The FEMA folks probably didn't either, since they aren't locals.

You're joking, right?

	04-09-2005 23:44									#248
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Nope. Not joking at all. FEMA's relying on maps, not their knowledge. You probably have thousands of bureaucrats in FEMA now loading maps.google.com and using Google Earth, just like CNN is using.

Your mind has permission to now be blown.

	04-09-2005 23:45									#249
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http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&address=&city=New+Orleans&state=LA

Where is the lake, and where is the Gulf...

	04-09-2005 23:45									#250
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Seriously. They just assumed that the Superdome and the Convention Center were the same place? Why would ANYONE do that?

I certainly don't believe that of you, Dan. You are not that dumb.

	04-09-2005 23:46									#251
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I cross-edited you liberally.

	04-09-2005 23:47									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Sava How does MOBIUS (or anyone else for that matter) "profit" by attacking Bush? just curious...

Che and I pay him 50 cents a post.

	04-09-2005 23:50									#253
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They get to sit in front of their comuter orgasiming all over themselves with each Bush bash.

	04-09-2005 23:53									#254
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I cross-edited you liberally.

A pox on your soul.

Not sure I understand your point in the edited post, however.

	04-09-2005 23:54									#255
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AFAIK, the Convention Center is a couple blocks from the Superdome. The press was reporting 25,000 at the Superdome, with lots of people milling outside, so how was the FEMA guy supposed to know there was 50,000 total versus 25,000 total, if the mayor didn't give FEMA the entire manifest? It's an honest incompetent mistake that we expect from non-locals, although in hindsight it might blow our minds.

	04-09-2005 23:55									#256
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Nope. Not joking at all. FEMA's relying on maps, not their knowledge. You probably have thousands of bureaucrats in FEMA now loading maps.google.com and using Google Earth, just like CNN is using. Your mind has permission to now be blown.

Given that in 2000, FEMA's own strategic document identified NO as one of the top three risks for a disaster in the US it seems to me that they sould have used that time to make detailed plans and preparations, including doing joint planning with state and local authorities. Had they done so, they would not only have known about the Convention Centre, but also been able to provide help more promptly and saved perhaps hundreds of lives. But maybe that's just me.

	04-09-2005 23:56									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos They get to sit in front of their comuter orgasiming all over themselves with each Bush bash.

That would be both exausting and messy.

	04-09-2005 23:56									#258
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Honest mistake? Why would anyone assume they are the same building? That is just plain STUPID. I'm certainly nonlocal, but I never thought they were the same building.

Attachment: nawlins.jpg
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	04-09-2005 23:59									#259
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You must be a great guy to discuss football scores with on Monday.

	04-09-2005 23:59									#260
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FEMA is now saying that the convention center was not a planned evacuation center and that people spontaneously started showing up there of Wednesday. I don't know the accuracy of that one way or the other.

	05-09-2005 00:01									#261
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I don't think I would make that mistake either, BUT if you show up and the locals are shouting Super Dome and nothing else, if I were FEMA thats where I would flood my initial responders as well.

Note that they did find out about the convetion center, and DID send help immediatly thereafter.

I can't see why a state shattering hurricane might cause confusion and chaos, I really can't.

	05-09-2005 00:04									#262
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quote: Honest mistake? Why would anyone assume they are the same building? That is just plain STUPID. I'm certainly nonlocal, but I never thought they were the same building.

That map's a little unfair, considering that FEMA probably is using street maps with a much larger scale.

They probably discovered maps.google.com and Google Earth on Thursday while watching CNN use it...

People do make mistakes like this all the time, however. These people aren't locals! Hammer that into your head. That's why we don't entrust FEMA with the first 3 or 4 days of a crisis. Gen. Honore has acquitted himself fairly well with the federal military response, and it's no coincidence that he's a local.

	05-09-2005 00:11									#263
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I don't care if they aren't locals, Dan!

I live in a city that has several large sports arenas, and a Convention Center. They aren't the same thing!

You don't have to be from New Orleans to know that!

	05-09-2005 00:16									#264
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Convention centers and arenas are often very near each other. The convention center in DC is two blocks from the MCI Center. If the MCI Center were overflowing with 25,000 people and convention center were overflowing with 25,000, I would not expect an outsider to be able to distinguish between them, because it would be the same mass of humanity.

I think we've beaten this particular angle to death. As Patrokolos said, the mistake probably lead to at most one day of delay on the evacuation of the convention center.

	05-09-2005 00:17									#265
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I'm sorry Dan, but that is one of the lamer excuses I've heard this week, and that's really quite a remarkable achievement.

	05-09-2005 00:19									#266
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I didn't mean to excuse. Only explain in the face of incredulity.

	05-09-2005 00:21									#267
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If that is a true explanation, I can't think of a better reason to fire everyone, from the city level all the way on up to "Brownie" and Chertoff.

	05-09-2005 00:22									#268
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Frankly, I'm with DanS and Patroklos on this one. If they didn't hear anything about the Convention Center, there's no reason for them to immediately rush people there to help.

Tragic, yes. But only a symptom of the greater cluster**** that's been this rescue operation.

And yes, whoever was giving them the information? That person's a douche, and has many lives to answer for on his or her pitiful soul.

	05-09-2005 00:22									#269
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And quit DanSing me!

	05-09-2005 00:24									#270
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Fire them all, I say. You have to make examples of people. But I wonder whether you'll get any better people as an alternative.