10-09-2005 02:06									#211
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manhattan - actually only 55% white.

	10-09-2005 03:21									#212
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Well, obviously core regions of any country are likely to be uncontested (not in case of Macedonia, though). But border areas and remote regions in the Balkans are very likely to be eyed by the neighbours... perhaps waiting for the right moment? Take Solun/Thesaloniki. It is on at least three maps in this thread: Greek, Macedonian and Bulgarian. And it's only three, because the Turkish map hasn't been posted yet

Well, there goes an Ottoman map...

	10-09-2005 03:29									#213
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You may find it interesting that in Turkey there's not much of a concept of a "Greater Turkey" per se.

On the one hand, if you think about the region around Turkey, there are sizeable Turkish minorities in many of Turkey's immediate neighbours (in Greece, Bulgaria, Iraq, and also Iran with its large Azeri minority) and thus a lot of material if you want to construct an irredentist mythos.

On the other hand, nationalism after the proclamation of the republic was so carefully shaped by Atatürk that irredentism virtually disappeared as an agenda item in Turkey (that at the high time of a fascist tide in Europe).

	10-09-2005 04:20									#214
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I think 1974. demonstrates that Turkey is not immune from that kind of thing at all.

	10-09-2005 04:26									#215
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1974? Was that the invasion of Cyprus?

	10-09-2005 05:06									#216
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Yes. Ancyrean could argue that Turkey wasn't really planning it and was dragged in, so the invasion wasn't a realisation of some "Greater Turkey" agenda. OK. Effect was the same though, Turkish Republic of North Cyprus is not de jure part of Turkey but de facto it is. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

	10-09-2005 05:12									#217
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By the way, protecting a minority of own nationals abroad is a pretty aggresive philosophy if you think about it. For example, Croatia has in its constitution that it is obligation of the state to care for Croatians abroad. In the case of Bosnia, that means we would (and had) militarily intervene in case their existence is endangered. Similar to Turkey and Cyprus if you will.

	10-09-2005 05:18									#218
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Not exactly territorial ambition, but not far from it. It's the next best thing.

	10-09-2005 05:18									#219
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Indeed, that's really aggressive, and it corresponds to an ethnical vision of the nation, which is seriously destructive.

AFAIK, there is no vision of greater France. There used to be one, prior to WW1, back when we wanted Alsace Lorraine back, and when we claimed much of Africa for ourselves.

But AFAIK, now that the time of revanchism is gone for us, we have no dreams of greater France, and we don't base our identity on ethnical principles. Our government might defend French citizens abroad (like any government actually), but it doesn't defend people from some French ethnical groups that has no ties with our citizenship.

	10-09-2005 05:24									#220
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Don't play peacenik with me, I know that you French imperialists intervene somewhere in Africa about every 30 days or so

	10-09-2005 05:24									#221
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I wanna invade somewhere But going with the minority excuse it would have to be places like North Dakota or Costa Blanca, which aren't that easy to move my army to...

	10-09-2005 05:26									#222
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Gangerolf, aren't you Swedish?

Did you know what the Finns are doing to the Swedish minority there? I can't bear to talk about it - it's that bad! What are you waiting for, attack and liberate!

	10-09-2005 05:29									#223
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Gangerolf, aren't you Swedish?

It reminds me of: "Sava, aren't you from Texas?" :rofl:

	10-09-2005 05:31									#224
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Hey, it's a big site, I can't know you all.

	10-09-2005 05:32									#225
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Don't play peacenik with me, I know that you French imperialists intervene somewhere in Africa about every 30 days or so

Obviously, but that's because Africa is our playground, not because it's our territory, nor is it because there are ethnical groups we feel obliged to protect.

	10-09-2005 05:33									#226
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Hey, it's a big site, I can't know you all.

Well, he's a bloodthirsty Norsk. Don't confuse them with the glorious Swedes

	10-09-2005 05:42									#227
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I forgive you. Both of you. (But Spiffoire it's "Nordmann". "Norsk" is the adjective)

BTW, there aren't any Swedes in Finland, only Finns who happen to speak Swedish. I think that's the official version anyway. So I don't think they suffer much, but if they did I would be the first to call for an invation, or nuking, whichever is cheaper.

	10-09-2005 06:23									#228
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I thought there was a Swiss minority in Finland.

	10-09-2005 22:23									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Indeed, that's really aggressive, and it corresponds to an ethnical vision of the nation, which is seriously destructive. AFAIK, there is no vision of greater France. There used to be one, prior to WW1, back when we wanted Alsace Lorraine back, and when we claimed much of Africa for ourselves. But AFAIK, now that the time of revanchism is gone for us, we have no dreams of greater France, and we don't base our identity on ethnical principles. Our government might defend French citizens abroad (like any government actually), but it doesn't defend people from some French ethnical groups that has no ties with our citizenship.

er, em, De Gaulles support for Quebec Libre?? I mean I know thats ancient history to you young folks, but its at least more recent than WW1.

And then theres France's continued patronage of the Lebanese Maronites (im not against that, its put France and the US on the same side for once, but is there not a sense of the Maronites "frenchness")

Oh, and there was the French help to Rwanda Hutus, motivated at least an part by the sense that the Tutsis would pull Rwanda out of the Francophonie (?)

And of course Frances continued political intervention in most of francophone west africa.

Of course many Americans would see the EU as the principle project for "Greater France"

	10-09-2005 22:26									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Obviously, but that's because Africa is our playground, not because it's our territory, nor is it because there are ethnical groups we feel obliged to protect.

well not like tribe x against tribe Y - more to help french language elites in general, and to have french cultural dominance and political dominance reinforce each other. Not that Im against it, mind you, but I think theres definitely some cultural content to it.

	10-09-2005 22:28									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf I wanna invade somewhere But going with the minority excuse it would have to be places like North Dakota or Costa Blanca, which aren't that easy to move my army to...

theres still the remnant of a small Norwegian immigrant community in Brooklyn, NY. I mean the Lutheran nursing home isnt much of an empire, but at least its on the coast

	10-09-2005 23:29									#232
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion By the way, protecting a minority of own nationals abroad is a pretty aggresive philosophy if you think about it. For example, Croatia has in its constitution that it is obligation of the state to care for Croatians abroad. In the case of Bosnia, that means we would (and had) militarily intervene in case their existence is endangered. Similar to Turkey and Cyprus if you will.

It's disgusting that you refer to the occupied parts of Cyprus as the North republic of turkey's cuprus or what's called by turkey

	10-09-2005 23:56									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder It's disgusting that you refer to the occupied parts of Cyprus as the North republic of turkey's cuprus or what's called by turkey

I suppose you oppose that disgusting "FYROM" acronym too, then?

	10-09-2005 23:58									#234
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Yes Skopjie is more fascinating

But those are two different things. One is a silly squabble over a name the other is an invasion with
untold suffering. using that name legitimizes it
of course it's used in a off topic forum of a games site by some constipated croation so i guess we must view it with its right proportions. still an unhealthy impression though.

	11-09-2005 00:01									#235
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The Turkish Republic of Cyprus

True peaceful people, who accepted the peace proposition by the UN, unlike their violent southern brothers.

	11-09-2005 00:03									#236
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How more miserable can you become?
I can see having fun with Skopjie but that just downgrades you as an (internet - granted) person

	11-09-2005 00:08									#237
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark er, em, De Gaulles support for Quebec Libre?? I mean I know thats ancient history to you young folks, but its at least more recent than WW1.

It's the closest we have to an idea of greater France. And even then, I don't think anybody envisioned a Québec belonging directly France (I wouldn't be surprised if De Gaulle wanted an independant Québec under French influence however).

quote: And then theres France's continued patronage of the Lebanese Maronites (im not against that, its put France and the US on the same side for once, but is there not a sense of the Maronites "frenchness")

Indeed, there are some populations we feel closer ties with. Québecois, Waloons, French-speaking Swiss, Maronites, and I think we even have fairly significant ties with the Coptes of Egypt.
However, it's nothing close to a country based on ethnicity: unlike Croatia, we are not legally bounded to assist them when they're in trouble. Unlike Germany, we don't grant them citizenship if they just ask.
And actually, for a long time, this feeling of sympathy extended to the Arabs (the North African Arabs in particular), despite the fact that we have no ethnical traits in common.

quote: Oh, and there was the French help to Rwanda Hutus, motivated at least an part by the sense that the Tutsis would pull Rwanda out of the Francophonie

It was mostly motivated by pure greed. Francophonie is an instrument of power in Africa, but it's not the aim in itself. Basically, Rwanda and Congo saw the struggle between Washington-supported groups and Paris-supported groups. In the case of Rwanda, we didn't hesitate to side with the genocidial maniacs until the **** hit the fan

quote: And of course Frances continued political intervention in most of francophone west africa.

This is also rapidly changing with the end of the cold war. We now are aware that francophione Africa isn't a playground that can only be ours. The Yanks are a serious competition. This is why we are now increasingly tied with English-speaking Africa: we have dramatically expanded our horizonts, just like we have considerably changed our methods (in the old times, that pesky Gbagbo would have already been dead for years, to be replaced by a convenient pawn)

quote: Of course many Americans would see the EU as the principle project for "Greater France"

Well, that's our idea too (though it's more subtle than that: we don't want their territory, nor the hassle it is to manage it - we just want their resources).
Too bad the other Europeans disagree with the concept

	11-09-2005 00:09									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Az The Turkish Republic of Cyprus True peaceful people, who accepted the peace proposition by the UN, unlike their violent southern brothers.

QFT. You should have added "barbaric"

	11-09-2005 00:23									#239
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Paiktis, first, stop misspelling Skopje. It's Skopje, not Skopjie, Skjpje or whatever.

Secondly, I did not comment legitimacy of Turkish Republic of North Cyprus. I just called them what they call themselves. I don't think I've given it international recognition just by that. Sure, I'm important in world politics, but nobody knows I post here

	11-09-2005 00:24									#240
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I already explained the reasons of my post. You can play deaf all you want. Skopjie Skpie skopie is too difficult. I think they should be called Skopia. It's much more easy.