26-11-2001 08:22									#211
	Inflate your Upload Space

They work fine for me...

	26-11-2001 08:35									#212
	Inflate your Upload Space

A few things to question here. First being about Governments.

I noticed that you chose to make the government with the editor and simply choose 'radio' or 'nationalism' for the prerequisit to 'make the government work'. I played around with the editor a bit and figured out that it's a little easier to do that way, but it *can* be done properly by adding a few things.

First you create an' advance and name it after the government. I chose "Federal Republic" for my test government. You would add the advance and then assign it an 'era' to become available. You can also add the cost (I chose a bit more than communism) as well as the position on the tech tree*. This way Icons could be added to personalize the governments, I'm not very good with graphics work so I chose the republic logo for this form of government. Regardless I played upto the industrial era and finally gained the ability for federal republic, switched over and played a bit with no problems.

Infact I only noticed a problem when I added it to the tech tree, which caused several crashes

Just my thoughts however!

Also along with Civpedia entries it's quite easy to do, if someone would want (Monkspider mainly as it's his mod.) me to add the Civpedia entries for the new forms of government as well as new units drop me a PM and I'd be more than happy to help.

Thats it for now, off to work on balanancing my fledgling government to fit well into the game.

Chaing

Last edited by ChaingKaiShek on 26-11-2001 at 08:40

	26-11-2001 09:10									#213
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Chaing,

I believe we already have the civilopedia entries for the current governments. I would like to here about your new govt when you get it balanced correctly. Any other ideas you might have would be greatly appreciated, as well. We can use all of the help we can get.


Although this is Monkspider's creation I do consider myself a large part of it. I hope Monkspider feels the same.

	26-11-2001 09:27									#214
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I do, I consider Eluc a Co-creator in this whole process, without him the Balancer would be but a shadow of it's current self!

	26-11-2001 09:39									#215
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Barring something unforeseen, 1.5 is set for release this Friday, I can say with absolute certainy that this will be hands down, the largest update to the mod yet, and will once again improve the game of Civilization III by a pretty good ammount. If anyone has any suggestions for anything they really want to see go in for 1.5, please make the suggestions now! As the Balancer team is going into the final stages of testing as we speak.

	26-11-2001 10:10									#216
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i noticed while playing that other expanionist (i play americans) civs dont expand, they just stick to their first city. the only thing that i changed from your guys version (1.4?) is that i made colonist use 1 population instead of leaching 2 from a city. i played for a hundred turns and the iroquois, english, and russians were all still in their first city (expansionist civs). is this a known problem (i didnt see it mentioned above) or was this because i changed the pop. value?

	26-11-2001 10:21									#217
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Mizaq,

I have never seen that. I can only speculate that this is from the changing of the pop requirement. I will test it and get back to you.

Did you try another game and have the same result? Maybe it was a fluke. Also was it only the expansionist civs that just sat there?

	26-11-2001 10:38									#218
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Ok ran into a game crash w/mod...i think...i am running a fascist gov...building the reichstag...as soon as its time to show the pic of reichstag and tell me that it has been built..the game crashes.......the pic for reichstag and the other added wonders do not show i=up in the civ pedia...or anywhere...its a blank yellow box....however i d/l that statue file from eluc..and that worked for taht..i can see the statue pic etc..i loaded the pcx files from the mod to the right folder it just will not show up the pic and i think that is what is crashing my game..how can i fix the pics for the new wonders etc.............help

	26-11-2001 11:01									#219
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I'll definately look into that when I test 1.5 this week. Guess I'll have to play on chieftan so I can make all the wonders and things.


Thanks for the notice.

	26-11-2001 11:07									#220
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I was just about to hit the reply button when the power flickered off, so here is a condensed version of my would-be post. Imagine that there are solid arguments backing up all of my suggestions.

Add a shield to the base value of Jungle and Mountain terrains.
Have clearing jungles give 5 wood to production.

Reduce the cost of the Forbidden Palace by about a third.

Increase advances cost by about 50% from about the end of the ancient age onward.

I would recommend not placing rate caps on gov's, or if you do, not to set them lower than 70% for any gov.
I would also look at lowering the number of free units per city. I think about 4 per metropolis for militaristic govs should be enough, to give you an idea. Modern units should cost more to build than they do currently, and should cost more to support.

Change the Samurai from 4/4/2 to 5/3/2.
Change the Marine from 12/7 to 10/8.

For the Medieval Pack, I kept a rough formula of increasing unit stats 50% from one upgrade to the next, and increasing cost by 33%. This seemed to work out well, if you want to use it as a guide for this next big update.

Keep your changes to boat movement, and do not add the ability to upgrade from wooden to iron ships.

I am sure there are things I forgot, but I can always post again later. Great work so far!

	26-11-2001 11:19									#221
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quote: Originally posted by WesW Great work so far!

That means a lot comming from you. I enjoyed the Medieval Pack.

We will definately look into your suggestions, in fact we have been discussing some of them already.

Although I don't know how we would change the wood from Jungle without changing the wood from forests. Or do you mean both?

And the Mountain shields...I wasn't sure if it would be better to have them with an initial +1 or an extra +1 from the mine. Any ideas or rationals with that?


Thanks for the ideas.

	26-11-2001 11:22									#222
	Elucidas Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I believe what the problem is...you can ck it....the color of the pic is true color i believe...and i think they need to be no more than 256 colors to work properly............i could be wrong...but the new statue pic you guys added few days ago was 256 instead of true color like the other pic files for the new wonders...and when the statue pic was changed it worked fine........you can look at that or at least maybe start there.......i guess i will have to postpone my game i have going.....becasue i need to build the reichstag.....playing fasicst chinese and was getting ready to build army up and wipe out the iroquiois......... guess i will have to wait..until you find out what it is...oh by the way...i went back to my saved game and changed the production from reichstag to a missle i think and it went on thru w/the game w.o locking up..so that has to be the problem.....if you have time soon....change the colors on the reichstag pic send it to me i will try it out since i am ready to build the reichstag...and go from there if ya want................anyway thanx..........keep up the work gusy.................

	26-11-2001 11:29									#223
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That is exactly what I was looking at. Good deductive work, BTW. And thatnks. I will post a replacement pic for you so you can continue your game... Give me a minute.

	26-11-2001 11:40									#224
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Here you go. Until 1.5 comes out, this should suffice. Let me know if this doesn't fix the problem, or if there are any others.

Last edited by Elucidus on 21-04-2002 at 05:34

	26-11-2001 11:56									#225
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That fixed the problem....thanks alot... Just remember sometime down the road you guys will need to do that for the other new wonders you added.....lets see that has the statue and reichstag fixed...just need dino park...sgt pepper...and the other..classless society.............again thax

	26-11-2001 11:59									#226
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Actually those should all be okay. We identified the need for this with the Statue fiasco. That one just seems to have eluded us. Thanks for the info, without it, it probably would've slipped into 1.5.


Happy gaming.

	26-11-2001 12:07									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Wow, the legendary Wesw visits our mod! I think it's safe to say that we have hit the big time. I loved your old medpack, a masterpiece of modsmanship if I do say so myself.
I really liked a lot of your ideas, and you can expect to see a number of them implemented in 1.5. Unfortunatly, something I have always wanted to see too, the jungle-5 shield bonus is impossible to do in the current version of the editor. Also, I was curious on your logic on the Samurai stat change, it seems that a 5 attack might be a bit much in a time when the best defender at the time is 3.

	26-11-2001 12:11									#228
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thanks to eluc and gentom for fixing up the reichstag, I'm kind of surprised no one has brought it up sooner actually

I guess that one just slipped past my radar, sorry about that

	26-11-2001 13:23									#229
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Hi all,

Just finished a 14 hr session of Civ III, playing with balancer Mod 140, with a few of my own changes:

- Moved Longevity back to Genetics
- Tweaked some strat resources appearance ratios (I forget them all now...shoot...know that I moved some up, some down, each no more than 5 or 10 points)
- reduced Galley movement to 3 (as per original)
- increased modern era naval units significantly - Battleship, Sub and Carrier to 8, destroyer to 10, Aegis to 12, Nuc. Sub to 10)
- Made All artillery types (cannon, arty, etc) airliftable
- Also, made a significant change in that irrigate w/o fresh water is now a function of Engineering, not Electricity. Semi-balancing, semi-realworld issue. (EDITED)

I believe that's it. In short, it was a wonderful game, played at Regent level w/ 8 civs on a standard map. Ended w/ a Diplomatic victory with only 3 civs remaining, myself included.

Wanted to post my civ3mod.bic so y'all could take a look.

Thanks again to Monkspider, Elucidus, and everyone else for the kickass mod.

Sincerely,
Yaga

NOTE : This is based on Monkspider's BALANCER 140 civ3mod.bic http://www.yaga-ysgs.com/civiii/MSB...100_civ3mod.bic

Last edited by Yaga on 26-11-2001 at 21:03

	26-11-2001 21:32									#230
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monk, congratulations on the popularity of this mod. However, my earlier question still stands. If the AI does not take advantage of the changes as well as the human player, are you producing a game that will be easier/more winnable for the human player? Is that what yourself and others refer to when it is said that this mod makes it a more enjoyable game...that it is only enjoyable if you know you can win instead of being a challenge?

Folks here seems to be enamored with the concept of the changes, but what are the actual results? The unmodable games that some have written about in Civ3-Stories suggest a challenging game that requires clever use of strategies given the limitations of some of the units and improvements. While some tweaks are in order, why do you and your groupies assume that wholesale changes need to be made when quite a few folks are playing enjoyable yet challenging Civ3 game as is?

	26-11-2001 21:55									#231
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Steve,

I understand your concern. However, as far as I have been able to determine, the game is just as challanging as before. The AI has taken advantage of many, if not all, of the changes made.

That was, in fact, one of the problems we incurred when adding worker traits to infantry...which has since been removed. There are many races for the new wonders, and they definately take advantage of the colonists... they don't have a choice there.

You are more than welcome to try it out and let us know your feelings on it. In fact I welcome more comments and suggestions, in every facet of the mod.

	27-11-2001 06:07									#232
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Let me test this website...

	27-11-2001 06:12									#233
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Okay that works as a direct link. And if you really feel the need to visit the mainpage goto:

http://www.knology.net/~elucidus/

I guess I'll use geocities as a backup...

	27-11-2001 08:35									#234
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I guess you are right about the Samurai stats. I was just looking at it versus the Knight. Samurai were better at offense than defense, so the 4/4 did not make sense.
I wish I had a spreadsheet of all the unit stats, like the one I made for the Medpacks. They make it much easier to plan everything out. All I have done so far is spot-check the Civilopedia.

I did not know that you could not separate the wood production of different terrains. Since so much of the map is covered in jungle, you might want to have it give wood anyway.

One bug I have noticed in my game- the Statue pic shown in the Civilopedia is not the small version that needs to be shown. What I see is the top part of the full-size pic stretching across the 'pedia area. I don't guess it has hurt anything, but it needs to be fixed sometime.

As far as general advice on mod-making; Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out. I would even advise against adding things the editor does not fully support, at least until the first patch comes out and we see if it contains a more powerful editor.

I checked out Plutarck's mod, and he seems to be going a little too fast with all the new gov's, units, etc. We need to have enough experience playing the game so that we understand what the game makers were trying to accomplish with their settings before making wholesale changes. I know you are now thinking about the wholesale changes I made to the Ctp games, but those games were a special case (I hope). I guess I am trying to say to make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play. Once you get a mod that addresses all the game's general imbalances, then people can take it and adjust it to fit their particular tastes. Even with the Medpack II, I spent the first 3 months or so studying the basic game, reading everyone's comments on it, and addressing all of those concerns. After that I started on the new tech tree and units, etc.

You guys seem to be making the mod for the right reasons- to make the game better, and not for your own egos (though praise is always appreciated). I hope you make new friendships and learn new skills like I did, though I doubt your task with Civ III will be anything close to the huge task of making the Ctp series playable (I think I had over a dozen people who contributed files and graphics for each of the Medpacks.)
Anyway, I will be following your progress and adding help where I can.

	27-11-2001 08:52									#235
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i'm busy with classes right now, but i'll get back to you guys about the colonist change. if no-one else has noticed it, it's probably from the change i made.

it was ONLY expansionist civs. the other civs were doing just fine (but not as fast as my incredibly unbalancing -1 pop point colonists)

	27-11-2001 09:05									#236
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quote: I wish I had a spreadsheet of all the unit stats, like the one I made for the Medpacks. They make it much easier to plan everything out

There's one in existence fortunately

It covers just about everything (including a tech tree) in an Excel file- you can grab it here

	27-11-2001 09:52									#237
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WesW,

I agree with you, we need to take it slow. Sometimes that is hard to do in and of itself. Currently I am updating the civilopedia with all of the changes we have made recently. Not a small task by any means. Thanks for your advice. We appreciate it.

	27-11-2001 11:02									#238
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks for the advice wesw,
wise words indeed, right now I am trying to patch up what I see as inherent shortcomings in the game, I have not added any units other than the Colonist (to help balanced out the civ attributes) and only one government (Fascism). The next update is going to be a bit bolder. But still I don't think anything completely out in left field. I'm going to give the governments each their own individual personalities, which I think is going to enhance the game greatly. There may be a few tweaks to be made here and there as time passes, but I don't think we are doing anything too far out there. Thanks for the kind words wes, support from such a legend of mod-making as yourself is very much appreciated.

	27-11-2001 11:06									#239
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Alright, just entered Industrial w/ the mod and the pics of the Colonist and the Worker disappeared while I'm playing as the Russians. This is only in the Build bars, and the main screen is fine.

	27-11-2001 11:08									#240
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Yeah, I noticed that myself. Haven't figured out what that is all about. Especially since we did nothing with the worker.