24-01-2003 07:04									#271
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And that quite litterally makes CTP call to power one of the best war games ever.
And I may add one of the biggest differences between online play and PBEM as far as thought processes go.

Adding on to Quinns idea toss a slaver or two in there and watch you leap ahead fast.

I would say there are many many different strategies and tactics but only a few combinations for winning.

Good to see the thread going again.

	24-01-2003 07:34									#272
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan Too late

Bird,

If you would have pumped out just a few more knights (instead of legions) and moved a few turns quicker, you could have taken my capitol. As it was, my warrior outposts saw your double nine-stack army well in advance and I had time to prepare a defense. Lucky for me!

	24-01-2003 07:40									#273
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quote: Originally posted by blackice And that quite litterally makes CTP call to power one of the best war games ever. And I may add one of the biggest differences between online play and PBEM as far as thought processes go. Adding on to Quinns idea toss a slaver or two in there and watch you leap ahead fast. I would say there are many many different strategies and tactics but only a few combinations for winning. Good to see the thread going again.

Good points Ice. But I am in agreement with Troll about Stealth units -- I personally don't like to use them -- but I found I had to use them to thwart the enemy's use of them. I like diplomats best. They have a vision of two and see all stealth units but the spy (or better). Once spotted, the stealth unit loses most of its power.

	24-01-2003 08:20									#274
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Good points Ice. But I am in agreement with Troll about Stealth units -- I personally don't like to use them -- but I found I had to use them to thwart the enemy's use of them. I like diplomats best. They have a vision of two and see all stealth units but the spy (or better). Once spotted, the stealth unit loses most of its power.

I use this strategy too, I build a few cities on rivers with good production when mountains are not readily available to spit out defensive units to support my cities say that are on grassland with 3-4 goods, they are busy with gold improvements and science improvements and other cities provide military support. This has been effective but of course against the great players well, me scratchin my head works well, watching them pick Trolldom apart

But, I have allways learned from the greats in the past and hope to in future as well!!

Troll

	24-01-2003 10:10									#275
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Me too Troll nothing worse than sitting on top of the pact and no real competion. That is what this thread is for...so create competition by adding your two cents worth. Seems to me you have learned a bit from naechev.

I am sure someone asked you to share it in another thread....

A few times I have used an army of slavers early in the game to triple my growth over my enemy. Once they are found sometimes is too late, the gains made can make a big difference. Nice to see an enemy force adding to your cities with each attack too.

As with nukes they make for a good first strike weapon.

Most specialty units can be very effective as a first strike or harrass unit. Timing and the fact most players do not use them make them quite valuable.

I think most people have not developed and or praciced strategies with them. Could be the reason some players do not use them in online gaming.

Drop an army of spies on a nation as I did in one game here and nuked 5 cities.

The nation never recovered, mind you the world did not either

What about you Birdy you do well here what tricks and or strategies do you find useful?

	24-01-2003 10:32									#276
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quote: Originally posted by blackice As with nukes they make for a good first strike weapon. Drop an army of spies on a nation as I did in one game here and nuked 5 cities. The nation never recovered, mind you the world did not either What about you Birdy you do well here what tricks and or strategies do you find useful?

Well...

Against the thread of nukes: Build lots of cheap fighters for use as airdefence when you are able to do so instead of waiting for the more expensive SAMs/interceptors. Also to used as effectuve scouts and stealthunit-hunters due to their many movementpoints.

The spy-trick Blackice mentions DOES work - even after the nanite-defuser has been builded. I uses that myself whereever possible.

And maybe a few more, which I do not have time to write about now. Have to wait for the weekend.

I might also have a few things/combinations, that you should NOT use.

	24-01-2003 10:36									#277
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quote: TheBirdman wrote: I might also have a few things/combinations, that you should NOT use.

Are you talking about a stack of 3 cavalry, 5 pikemen and 1 slaver

	24-01-2003 12:28									#278
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quote: Originally posted by jpww Are you talking about a stack of 3 cavalry, 5 pikemen and 1 slaver

No, it wasn't exactly that I had in mind.

But it is sure good news - how many units did I loose in that battle?

	24-01-2003 18:50									#279
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At least two, I believe, but I will have to send in a team of experts to double-check. Don't worry; they will be gentle

	26-01-2003 11:17									#280
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jp spam is good and normal for you, but what do you have to contribute to the creation of better competition and strategies?

We know you are a chess master and an average player here, but you must have learned something which you could share with us?

Anything? Share it that happens to be the idea here, and I know you have some ideas?

	26-01-2003 12:56									#281
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If you have an AI, which continues to annoy you - by expelling your diplomats/settlers, or even worse continues sending slavers/clerics against you - but you do not really want to go to war against them because your current main target are somewhere else, then try this little trick.

Attack and destroy as many of the "naughty" units in a few turns that you can (add a slaver to your attacking groups if possible), then offer the AI an "old" advance to get peace again when you have cleaned up. If you just offer a peacetreaty, the AI normally reject it.

Of course - this should only be done if you have much more advances than the AI. Don't let them come too close by offering them too new advances.

	26-01-2003 19:44									#282
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And a little NOT to do.

Never-ever change map with the AIs in a challenge game.

You could just as well give your opponent your map yourself!

	26-01-2003 22:00									#283
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When playing against an AI, particularly those with the slaver or religious trait, I will try to have a slaver in most of my cities. This way when they send those annoying slavers, clerics, or even abolitionist, I can thank them for the free labor As your cities grow from this cheap population, you may want to have 2 slavers and 6 defenders. That way you can attack S, C, or A's while still being able to produce additional units, and getting another slave from their uprisings

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but, in thoery, you could get another citizen in your city every turn from those slave revolts.

	26-01-2003 22:11									#284
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hmm nimrod, me thinks that the revolting slaves also create a few military units out of nowhere which you have to defeat first.. also attacking the city (if not even the uprising in the first place) reduces the city pop.
so i dont think it will work

	26-01-2003 22:15									#285
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It works in CTP2 - someone discovered this a few months ago. You can get huge cities in no time.

	26-01-2003 22:43									#286
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oh as for the slave uprising thing, you could ask birdman, i think he just had that 'problem' in our game.

	26-01-2003 22:57									#287
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan And a little NOT to do. Never-ever change map with the AIs in a challenge game. You could just as well give your opponent your map yourself!

of course, if you're having a duel with 6 AIs, built philosopher's stone and change maps with ALL AIs, you might gain as much information about your opponents map as he gains about yours.
also, if you have labyrinth in addition, maximizing your map knowledge will result in more available goods to purchase on the market, since you need to KNOW at least one route to get to the target city to build a trade route.

more precisely: first, you need to know the city at all for it to be available in the trade list.
second, you need to know that direct path to the city (which for example is not always the case if you exchange maps via philosophers stone)

one more thing:
if you time your infrastructure builds right you can get maximum effect out of them.
im not talking about the 700 PW farm bug here.
if you build infrastructure beneath a city on the same turn as you found the city, but just before you do, it will be available for the city production once it is done.
infrastructure you build earlier than that on the city square will be deleted by city founding.
i hope this doesnt count towards cheating cause i already used this method in most of my games.
if otherwise, please someone tell me and i will stop.

a similar trick can work with surveillance or military infrastructure (sonar, listening post, radar, airport thing, fort) if you build and let it be finished before you build the actual infrastructure on that square. this way you will have both, and if im not mistaken can also build roads to accumulate with the other two.

	26-01-2003 23:27									#288
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Good stuff Math something like this is interesting, was it intended to be used? If so you would think it would be in the rules instructions etc...Civilization had this bug to.

By bringing it up here pulls everyone together on the same page and lets the community itself decide if it is a bug and or a legal tool of knowledge to be used by the comunity as a whole.

So what do you think Math is it a normal part of the game or a bug to be exploited?

Personally I think it is a bug, but should it be used here as a tool? We should all vote on it as we have done as a community in the past.

I would say hummmm if you look at human history we would find keeps. I hope I have the name right. They were self contained fortresses. They were a fort with farms and all the nessessities for it's peoples inside the fortress.

This too would resemble a keep, so was it a bug...Hummm.

Thanks again for bringing it up

	26-01-2003 23:35									#289
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Most people know I am notorious for playing games without stealth units and more often playing a settlers excluded game..i.e. start with 9 then find only in ruins or war ravage civilizations ..

I will play against 6 ai on a Gigantic Land Map..I will give an old advance to an ai...a token gold offering..maps exchange and most time get a multitude of reward a very large coffer for an excellent Return-On-Investment.

Sometimes they get ill..sometimes, more often than not..I get a lot more than i give.

Troll

	26-01-2003 23:41									#290
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hmm, history apart (is the game very realistic at all ??)
i would say it is no bug, maybe it wasnt intended, but why shouldnt the city square (which is by itself ca. 100 x 100 km when you take Civilisation as a basis - look at civ earth map, it is that rough) be utilized as well ?
i would say it is okay.

	27-01-2003 03:07									#291
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Yes it is based on history, read the developers notes or play the board game...

I personally think it is a bug but based on reality I think it should be used.

But as always this is what this thread is all about, passing on tips, info, discoveries so we all play on an even playing field. Above all fair play and competition.

Unless of course your need to win exceeds your desire for fair play and or stimulating games with even opponents. Not directed at you Math but those few players who want to be the best at any cost.

Ber you have a special tallent spill the beans.

Any more tips?

Black

	27-01-2003 03:36									#292
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hm i both need win and fair play. but one isnt interesting without the other

	27-01-2003 05:44									#293
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Yup you can beat on people and win all day... BORING...

Or you can teach them to beat you Good Gaming...

Black

	27-01-2003 05:56									#294
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Yup you can beat on people and win all day... BORING... Or you can teach them to beat you Good Gaming... Black

OOOR...
you can teach them to beat the old 'YOU', then get better and still kick their ass.

	27-01-2003 06:04									#295
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I recently played someone, whooped him badly in science, he asked and I told him, about manually placing workers on goods tiles, and he did the next game. This was amazing, simple if you think about it, but it greatly increased my gold input, which took me a long time to realize, better gold better science!

I remember when I would play folks they would whoop me terribly, now, well, the list is still Johnson long but learning more, so as Pete stated, teach them what you know,.

Another thing I saw someone do, was they found a city way away from there CIV, they built some scout units in that city, then disbanded it, while now having several scouts clearing that area.


Very Smart!

Troll

	27-01-2003 08:24									#296
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Good points troll all of them, we were and still are newbies However as we have learned copious amounts of tricks of the trade some people have not. Teach them as you will find out the more competition the better the gamer...

This thread is for that reason, I will expound upon the city trick you mentioned, if I may.

That strategy is very sound especially when on very productive land. You can continue to disband and build to your hearts content. Keep in mind that this far away city is causing discontent in your civ. So build a few disband, build a few disband. Remember to keep one back for the city to keep the happiness up for the few turns it takes to build a few.

It also really trows the opponent off if you happen to build a city on thier land and continue to move it and produce war units. They think you are where you are not. Yet they have to defend against these units and it is for them a waste of resources.

I can not remember the players name but he used to drive me nuts with this strategy.

God does a very similar thing as do other good players.

David you have anything to add here?

Black

	27-01-2003 08:52									#297
	War Time Strategy Remove this text

I believe it was perhaps Faded Glory-Hole that either inspired me or taught me this trick.

In Fascism, build a bunch of Fascists when at war, easy to produce (usually at this point you will have Mills,Factories Drugs Stores & Oil Refineries.) While warring with a multitude of these, slowly start to build tanks instead. Useing the Fascicst to attack ,the tanks have triple the movement points ( 6 vs 2) of Fascists so you can easily catch up to the actual battle scene, plus Tanks have + 2 defensive points. Plus add the fact that you may want to switch govt so tanks wont be lost. The thing about Fascism is it allows more military units in field vs any other govt (in regards to unhappiness points)

They are nasty jack-booted scoundrels which cannot be ignored.

One other point that I never gave any thought to. I use in Communism and with Fascism close in production, try this. On a single turn, put pw to MAX for one turn. this will give a large amount to build...Railroad...so you may transport your units quick
. One other thing thats really kewl to do
slowly be building several roadways toward your nemesis, and when you get railroad, in one turn after placing a rr tile it converts, without roads I believe it 4 turns..but please dont quote me...I forget exactly.

Hope this helps some

Troll

	27-01-2003 13:07									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician one more thing: if you time your infrastructure builds right you can get maximum effect out of them. im not talking about the 700 PW farm bug here. if you build infrastructure beneath a city on the same turn as you found the city, but just before you do, it will be available for the city production once it is done. infrastructure you build earlier than that on the city square will be deleted by city founding. i hope this doesnt count towards cheating cause i already used this method in most of my games. if otherwise, please someone tell me and i will stop. a similar trick can work with surveillance or military infrastructure (sonar, listening post, radar, airport thing, fort) if you build and let it be finished before you build the actual infrastructure on that square. this way you will have both, and if im not mistaken can also build roads to accumulate with the other two.

I say as Blackice - it is a bug.

But-but it also sounds interesting.

I say, this bug/feature is one, that both part should agree to use or not to use before they start a game.

Math: Just continue - I'll use this from now in this game - see if I can catch up .

	27-01-2003 13:16									#299
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and yet one:

When your game is growing "old", it seems to me, that improvements gets much cheaper to rushboy during the anarchy period between changes of governments.

So I always try to have a decent amount of gold before I change from "x government" to coorporate republic and any other of the "late" government types.

	28-01-2003 07:55									#300
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I still have a heck of a time moving from Theocracy to some other government. I usually try democracy or communism after theocracy. But I never get the production out of them and it is difficult to manage until I can make it to Facism.