28-01-2003 09:34									#301
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CheckMate,

How many cities do you have when you switch from Theocracy to Democracy? 40 is good. Your gold should be pretty good by then, with two to four monopolies generating most of your science also. Make sure you have Marketplaces and Banks in your monopoly centers. Once you switch to democracy, keep 90% of your military units in your cities and don't build any more military if you can help it. You will see that the advance to Fascism under Democracy takes only 10 to 20 turns. Your science and gold are better while under Democracy compared to Theocracy. Under Fascism be careful to only build the Fascist units if you plan to attack or be attacked. You will lose your Fascists once you switch to a more advance government after Fascism.

	28-01-2003 10:26									#302
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It actually works as Math said it would - this tip/bug/feature building infrastructure below a newfounded city (edit/added: both tasks should be started/made in the same turn).

In my challengegame against him, a city on plains rose its food production at turn 3 from its founding by 15 food (advanced farm).

So we clearly have to decide how this should be used in future and running games - FAST.

(More added: I do not think use of this can make a great difference in "old" games - but in new and fairly new games it sure matters.)

Last edited by TheBirdMan on 28-01-2003 at 12:14

	28-01-2003 19:00									#303
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan (More added: I do not think use of this can make a great difference in "old" games - but in new and fairly new games it sure matters.)

ive experienced that in the very beginning of the game you rarely want to save PWs until you found the city.
in the late game it doesnt matter too much cause your civ is doing well already anyway.
so it is only really important in the mid-game (say cities 5-20)

	28-01-2003 20:02									#304
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan It actually works as Math said it would - this tip/bug/feature building infrastructure below a newfounded city (edit/added: both tasks should be started/made in the same turn). In my challengegame against him, a city on plains rose its food production at turn 3 from its founding by 15 food (advanced farm). So we clearly have to decide how this should be used in future and running games - FAST.

My view is that this is not a bug, but a tip. It makes sense that you could build a city on top of a radar station or listening post, for example. I have never used it, but I think it should be allowed.

:edit: Now that I understand how this works better, I change my mind. This is a bug and should be avoided.

	28-01-2003 20:05									#305
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quote: Originally posted by quinns My view is that this is not a bug, but a tip. It makes sense that you could build a city on top of a radar station or listening post, for example. I have never used it, but I think it should be allowed.

so do i
(my vote does count thrice, doesnt it ? )

	28-01-2003 20:42									#306
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oh in case the other improvement trick wasnt clear:

you have to build non-transport, non-infrastructure tile improvements (keep, surveillance tower, sonar, ...) on a tile and WHEN IT IS FINISHED build the actual infrastructure you want (roads, farms, ...)
this way you will have all three on the tile.
it might even be possible to build one thing out of each column of the build menu this way, e.g. surveillance tower, keep, road AND farm.
havent fully tried yet, but i think it depends on the right order and that each one is FINISHED before you build the next one. (except roads and farms and the likes, which you can build simultaneously)

	28-01-2003 21:02									#307
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and here is atually a strategic hint of mine:

PW optimization

i often collect PWs by setting the global PW value in a way that the least of it goes unused, while still providing a good production overall.

for example, if you have only one city its pretty simple:
once the thing youre building is finished in just one turn, set the PW as high as possible while still finishing the order in one turn.
in detail: set PW up by 10%, press F1 again (dont need to close the menu, just actualize it by F1) until the order is NOT done in 1 turn anymore, then set the PW value BACK by 10%. this is the optimal value.

okay, this was quite simple, and has already been said here (for science though if i remember it right)
well. science is a different thing, cause the surplus science is carried over to the next research, whereas surplus production is not.

okay back to the PW optimizing.
what now if you have more than 1 city ?
well, then you have to prioritize between minimum loss of work and maximum speed of production.

going to the extremes, you trivially optimize production speed at 0% PW.
on the other hand you would minimize the production loss (due to the above mentioned over-production) by going from 100% PW down until at least one city finished production in one turn, and not further.
this is because if you go down further to have more cities finish, the additional production pumped into the previous cities goes to waste.


the following is a list of some methods i usually use as rule of thumb to optimize between both goals (maximum production speed and minimum production loss), starting at the extreme of maximizing speed, going down to the extreme of minimizing loss.
which method i choose mainly depends on how urgent i need PWs or production.

NOTE: for just one city, all points except point 1 are equivalent.
again remember, hit F1, change PWs and without closing the list, just hit F1 again.
oh, and sorting by 'time to finish production' is a good idea as well.

1.) 0% PW always maximizes speed (trivially)

2.) increase PWs as long as possible so that each city will still finish its production in the SAME number of turns as with 0% PW (complicated for more cities and not my favourite)

3.) increase PWs as long as possible so that each city which finished its production in 1 turn at 0% will still finish its production in 1 turn. (this is my favourite if i want maximum production speed, while gaining a few PWs, and am not currently building important and rush buy expensive things like wonders)

4.) increase PWs (still starting at 0%) until for the first time the same number of 1's in the 'turns to finish' column comes twice, then go as far as possible up without changing that number again.

5.) like point 4, but you dont start at 0% PW but at a number you at least want to have, like for example 20%.

6.) like step 7 (!), but start at the MAXIMUM amount of PWs you want to have, for example 80%.
(my favourite for gaining much PWs when there is nothing important or urgent to produce)

7.) go down from 90% until for the first time the same number of 1's appears again, then one step up again. (that is, where you had the same number at 10% more PWs)

8.) from 100% PW go down by 10% steps until the first time at least one city finished production in 1 turn.
this will minimize production loss.
of course you can minimize it even more by micro-managing all your cities each turn. but that isnt the topic here.

of course, another, more simple, rule of thumb which goes in somewhere in the middle, is just constantly setting PWs to a fix value like 30%.
converging towards infinite cities, this would be equivalent to method 5 and 6, which would then be equivalent to each other as well. but with infinite cities who would have any of these problems anyway ?

hope reading all that stuff was helpful for you

Last edited by Mathemagician on 28-01-2003 at 21:26

	28-01-2003 23:37									#308
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan It actually works as Math said it would - this tip/bug/feature building infrastructure below a newfounded city (edit/added: both tasks should be started/made in the same turn). In my challengegame against him, a city on plains rose its food production at turn 3 from its founding by 15 food (advanced farm). So we clearly have to decide how this should be used in future and running games - FAST. (More added: I do not think use of this can make a great difference in "old" games - but in new and fairly new games it sure matters.)

This trick is not so well known in CtP2 MP, but most, if not all "good" MP players start by building any new city on a farm. I didnt find this out by myself, i played a few players that out grew me in the ancient age pretty quickly and their cites grew so fast to size 4 that they built their initial buildings faster and were more prepared later on. Im sure its not as great in ctp1 because farms only add +5 food but its still something to think about with adv farms.

	28-01-2003 23:40									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Im sure its not as great in ctp1 because farms only add +5 food but its still something to think about with adv farms.

yes. thats why i build mines instead of farms early on.
damn. that was my most secret trick..
what a fool i am

	29-01-2003 01:46									#310
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Math, I tested your theory about building a city on advanced farms and mines. In both cases, the building of the city destroyed both farms and mines and made no difference to the food or production of the city. Are you sure that you are not referring to CTP2??

:edit: I think I see what you mean. You have to build the infrastructure and found the city ON THE SAME TURN to make it work. Is that right? If that works... I change my mind. I didn't understand fully the first time. That is a bug and a bug exploit. It should be banned from future challenge games, and generally banned from organized multiplay, in my opinion.

Last edited by quinns on 29-01-2003 at 01:58

	29-01-2003 01:55									#311
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Math, I tested your theory about building a city on advanced farms and mines. In both cases, the building of the city destroyed both farms and mines and made no difference to the food or production of the city. Are you sure that you are not referring to CTP2??

are you sure you built them in the same turn as the city, quinns ?
yes, i am referring to CTP 1.

	29-01-2003 01:59									#312
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... (from above edit) ... I think I see what you mean. You have to build the infrastructure and found the city ON THE SAME TURN to make it work. Is that right? If that works... I change my mind. I didn't understand fully the first time. That is a bug and a bug exploit. It should be banned from future challenge games, and generally banned from organized multiplay, in my opinion.

	29-01-2003 02:02									#313
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quote: Originally posted by quinns ... (from above edit) ... I think I see what you mean. You have to build the infrastructure and found the city ON THE SAME TURN to make it work. Is that right? If that works... I change my mind. I didn't understand fully the first time. That is a bug and a bug exploit. It should be banned from future challenge games, and generally banned from organized multiplay, in my opinion.

but i said that right in the beginning.
why do you think it should be banned then ?

	29-01-2003 02:50									#314
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I know you said it the first time, Math. My fault, I missed it the first time I read it.

I think this build-city-on-infrastructure bug should be banned because it falls into the same category as rush-buy-switch trick. It obviously is a "bug" and all bug exploits are banned in organized ctp play. This is a bug exploit. No fault on you for using it earlier, Math. Thanks for pointing this out! My vote is for banning use.

	29-01-2003 02:53									#315
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okay, i wont use it in my PBEM (or MP) games for now. (hope i dont forget it though cause im really used to it now)
but i really want a quick definite decision by the whole community...

	29-01-2003 03:51									#316
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Right Math. That was just my opinion on it. We'll see what the rest of the group thinks... I'll go along with the concensus.

	29-01-2003 04:03									#317
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In CtP2 MP we dont ban this particular "bug", maybe its because theres other bugs that are far easier to exploit and policing small things like the farms under cities is too much effort. If anyone asked me how i grew so quickly i tell them how, sometimes in the middle of a game, its no fun to have an unfair advantage.

The rush-buy switch trick is different in that it manipulates the game, but a farm or mine under a city acts as a normal farm or mine, just that it counts as the free worker under the city.

	29-01-2003 04:08									#318
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regularly updated
please, anyone correct me, if i misinterpreted your voting

"farm under city" bug/trick

BAN: 4 (quinns, david42one, checkmate, blackice)
DONT BAN: 3 (maquiladora, mathemagician, troll)

"fortress under farm" bug/trick (see one of my posts above)
BAN: 1 (blackice)
DONT BAN: 3 (mathemagician, troll, checkmate)


please vote everyone !!

Last edited by Mathemagician on 29-01-2003 at 09:55

	29-01-2003 04:22									#319
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I dont think you should ban these. In fact, I never used the rush buy trick, but since learning about it, I think its ok to do also

I also think if you build a Farm or mine and build a city on it, well, MORE Power to you!

I mean, I have learned so much from paul,Faded Glory-Hole, Blackice,Money,Erni,Ivat Tattequer and many many more...they dont tell me all the tricks of the rrade they have learned, some yes, but not all, such as exploiting the sliders, MAX hours, minimum wages and such..

I dont mean cheating, I mean down-to-earth Honest to goodness Tools of the trade, tricks or shortcuts instead of the build this then that they exploit the obvious, like building cities on Mountain rivers, WHEW!

Imagine a mine on that!!(And top with a city!!)

Sa-Weet!

Troll

	29-01-2003 05:21									#320
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I vote it to be a bug, and considered cheating unless both sides agree to use it before the game starts.

Math another trick along those lines...

Wait until you have a large surplus of gold.
Rush buy as many things as you can.
Set PW to maximum.

Obviously, if you rush buy an improvement, your city's production is wasted for that turn, so you might as well turn it into PW.

	29-01-2003 05:27									#321
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quote: Originally posted by david42one I vote it to be a bug, and considered cheating unless both sides agree to use it before the game starts. Math another trick along those lines... Wait until you have a large surplus of gold. Rush buy as many things as you can. Set PW to maximum. Obviously, if you rush buy an improvement, your city's production is wasted for that turn, so you might as well turn it into PW.

good point, david. but i already knew it.
just forgot to mention it.
well, actually i combine it with my mentioned rules in that i prefer rush buying when my rules lead to a high PW value anyway.

also, i usually make exceptions from my mentioned rules when only 1 city would save production by it.
from 3 or 4 cities on, i only do these things when 2 or more cities show a tasty '1'.
rush buying improvements of course raises the number of 1's so....

oh and, david, someone said someone else (maybe you) would be so good at micromanaging.. ?
if it was you, maybe you could share some of your knowledge with me... err. us

	29-01-2003 08:00									#322
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I think that when we say "ban" something, we really mean that we are forced to reveal that we intend to use the trick/bug at the beginning when the rules for the game are being defined. Then if both agree they will use it (or not use it.) If they can't agree the game is not played.

Under this definition, I think the pw under city should be "banned"

However the other one, (keep) e.g. farm on sonar, seems like a normal move since it doesn't rely on some kind of trick timing, like all done on one turn.

The idea behind the keep, I think is that the sonar would not be destroyed by letting a farm grow up around it. But trapcing through the farm to build a sonar just might destroy the farm ....

	29-01-2003 08:08									#323
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well, the second trick also requires the right timing, checkmate, which is letting the first one being finished first.

also i dont like discussing every single detail/setting/bug use before the game, cause i just cant remember all these different settings while running like 6 different duels alone at a time.

thus, because i still would like to use the 'trick' id rather say dont ban it in the first place.
once we decide to ban it, however, i wont make any agreements anymore to use it anyway.

also, for our game, checkmate:
id prefer if we only use this trick until this thread has actually decided whether to ban it. until then, we simply agreed to use it, but beyond that, id prefer if we dont, should it be banned.

	29-01-2003 08:11									#324
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also, one more thing on behalf of not banning the farm/mine bug:

for example im currently playing a single player game with almost no land

i use the trick, also because my production on that little land simply depends on it.
else it would take me way longer to ever get away from my small island.
just a thought...

	29-01-2003 09:36									#325
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Heh now we know through another player some of the tricks used by some of the online gamers. More to come much to the chagrin of others...

The nice part is, it is in the open, the next part is we all decide, the final part is, it is in the open hey Paul and others another one down a few to go... Yep honest abes they are.

This is what good gaming is all about, nothing like winning because you exploit bugs in the game no one knows about. Your my hero, yup....

Again not directed at you Math, you are what this thread and community is all about. Take nothing personal here you are simply expounding and contributing to the community here. CHEERS!

Bottom line for me it is a bug, the same bug that is in the original game. I think if most went back the original game they would find more of these. No I am sure After all winme, xp, nt xp etc... For those that follow.

The difference is we have people willing to bring us all in line as Math has. He should be thanked not chastised, follow me? :hummm:

The bug is simple and as all bugs like Maquiladora said little bugs like these are hard to police. Mind you most of us moderators pick up on it sooner later.

I will expound on the ctp2 community as pbemer's, they died and angry death. Why? because they had a few expolioters of the game use these exploits and not inform the community until they were exposed. This created animosity and the community self imploded.

A lesson if you followed it to be learned and not repeated. Thes few became infamous cheats, were they? According to the masses they were. Why? Because they used cheats and game bugs and game exploits to beat thier opponents. Lets continue to avoid that senario and encourage this type of thread, no exceptions. Good job Math!

The key is here do we agree it is a bug? Sure it is a bug if not it would be in the manual. More important as a community do we agree to use it? Nice part here is we have the time to decide. When setting up a game here we can spell out the rules of the game for all to agree. Bottom line if it is not spelled out ask...and or do not use it until the community, which we belong agrees ok?

Online as Math said it is difficult to remember all the bugs and flaws. More important like Math thier are some people who work with us as a community and some people who just like to win...

So as david42one said and keeping with PBEM standards I would say it is a bug that unless stated before the game, obviously we have time to do it here. It should be considered a bug/cheat.

Bottom line intentionally exploting a game flaw to win is and has been always considered cheating. To expose this and or tools to cheat with should be considered fair play and an honest player doing thier part...

Good job Math I do understand your use to maximize your game/land situation but had the other player known of the trick, then the game still would have fallen into the even/less even land factor. If you had presented this before the game and had the better land you would have the edge.

Had you presented this before the game and had the worse land you would still have had the challenge for the win. Do you see our point here?

So Bug Exploit to gain an edge or as it is now common knowledge to be agreed upon?

What is your vote now?

How will any of us expose these types of bugs in the future, let alone cheats?

Come on as per the example, keep it fair, open and honest... After all nothing like winning an even match of anything. Us skill, knowledge and moxy, most of all an even playing field.

That honest distiction has and obviously and continues to separate CTP players here from any other game league going...CHEERS!

Good Gaming!

Black

	29-01-2003 09:53									#326
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quote: Originally posted by blackice The key is here do we agree it is a bug? Sure it is a bug if not it would be in the manual. [QUOTE] hmm. depends.. is the bug that it works if you build the thing on the same turn as the city or is it the bug that it does not if you build it earlier ? think about that iceman. in civilisation building tile improvements before the cities always worked. (civ1 im talking about, about the others i dont know) [QUOTE] When setting up a game here we can spell out the rules of the game for all to agree.

thats exactly what i would like to prevent. cause little things like that are hard to remember if differently agreed on in each of your 8-10 games...

quote: Online as Math said it is difficult to remember all the bugs and flaws.

hmm. thats not what i meant (see lines above). or maybe i misunderstood you.

quote: Had you presented this before the game and had the worse land you would still have had the challenge for the win. Do you see our point here?

not exactly, ice.
cause you still prioritize between spending a few turns NOW for better production later or going for the faster expansion first.
sometimes one of these options is simply better than the other and you need it to keep up in the game.
so in the few land situation i would prefer to spend a few more turns to place me in a better ressource position later on, whereas on more land i'd probably first go expanding and place cities on wood/good tiles first.
also, keep in mind that with more island shaped land (like SMALL islands ) the more likely the coasts will be hills which really benefit from the 'bug' and help compensating.
anyway, i'll bow to the majority. just wanted to speak in behalf of "my bug".
yeah, cause ive really grown to like it by now. i would be sad to see it banned
you won't do that to me, will you ?


still, thanks for all the compliments about my fairness blackice.
i'll try to live up to your ideal which i am apparently embodying.

	29-01-2003 09:54									#327
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My initial opinion is, that the "feature" IS a bug - mainly because you have to start building the city and start farming/mining/construction of something at the very same turn ( and by the fact, that I didn't knew it even existed ).

On the other hand - your opponent can actually SEE there is a farm beneath a city when scouting or changing of maps.

Further the "feature" is linked with the city - so if someone conquors such a city, then the new owner gets the extra food/gold/production - whatever builded.

I say: It should be up the the players to decide - actually they MUST agree (be part of our selfmade rules) - to use it or not to not to use it before a new game starts. Just as we already do with the wonders/ruins.

This way, we spread this "knowledge" to new players too.

If anyone already uses it - then stop unless you ask and are allowed by the other players in the game. What already is done - is done.

	29-01-2003 09:54									#328
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oh, one more thing blackice...
so your vote is 'bug' for both tricks or only for the "farm on city" trick ?

	29-01-2003 10:00									#329
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan I say: It should be up the the players to decide - actually they MUST agree (be part of our selfmade rules) - to use it or not to not to use it before a new game starts. Just as we already do with the wonders/ruins.

okay, so in my running games:

BirdMan - we agreed on using it
quinns - no agreement yet, dont use it
Nimrod - no agreement yet, dont use it
checkMate - we agreed on using it
David42one - no agreement yet, dont use it

and these are only the official two player games.
again, i stress that i will most likely NEVER agree to use it, if i have to decide seperately for every single game.

the thing with wonders and ruins is different in that you can simply 'turn it off' at the start of the game by modifying text files or changing slics, so u dont have to remember every time.

	29-01-2003 14:02									#330
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quote: Originally posted by blackice I will expound on the ctp2 community as pbemer's, they died and angry death. Why? because they had a few expolioters of the game use these exploits and not inform the community until they were exposed. This created animosity and the community self imploded.

CtP2 pbemers community died an angry death because pbem isnt included in CtP2 (without some modifications only known now) If your referring to MP well that was certainly the rush-buy bug, the animosity and paranoia it created in gameleague made the whole CtP2MP community collapse for a couple of years. No doubt the top players were using the farm under city trick, but they were willing to share their tips. The real skill boils down to choosing a good city site and knowing when and where to build, these things are learnt through trial and error, just plopping a city on a farm anywhere wont win a game. Anyway ive invaded this fantastic thread enough. Perhaps a seperate thread on the issue and get back to the strategy?