30-01-2003 08:11									#331
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quote: not exactly, ice.

While I see your point, my point is exploiting game flaws to "equalize" and or to win games is not exactly what PBEM is all about or MP for that matter. Nor is it in my humble opinion fair gaming. A trick as it exploit's game flaw and creates an unfair "advantage" or "equalizing".

As far as the production "trick" It is widely known and documented as part of the game. So it is not a flaw I think even the game designer commented on this fact.

Face it different moves and strategies win this game on an even keel. That speaks volumes for one's abilities and skill at the game.

Using hacks, cracks, bugs, cheats and the like just expresses one's desire to win at all cost's. Not one's skill at the game.

Maquiladora I stand corrected, thanks. I did mean online games.
I also saw that often more then not it was exposed and not freely shared as a community just with the tribe which they belonged. That accounts for the "cheat" factor and paranoia. Just look to GameLeague for a perfect example of this reality.
Many defectors caused many times of discontent in CTP2. I followed that forum for quite a long time. Had they used a thread like this I am sure they would still be an ever growing community.

The hard part here is it is a bug? what then should we do with it.?
Step one is complete the community at large knows about it.
Step two is we know how to use it.
Step three vote on it's common use, should it be concidered a normal tactic or on a per game basis all in agreement usage.
I think we agree it is a bug, most bugs here, if not all? Are banned unless all agree to it's use. I see no reason to treat these bug differently.

So in my tiny vote it is a bug and should be banned unless all agree before the game. Keeping track is easy as we have done it will be stated in the description of the game in the thread of that game for all to see.

The main reason for this is I have seen it's use in games and watch as an unfair advantage is taking place... I would suggest any and all players cease it's use until we as a community decide agreed? Just as Birdy suggested.

Math It is tradition for the most part that you start a new thread describing the trick and create a poll asking the obvious should it be used or banned unless agreed upon prior to games starting, you up to the task?

	30-01-2003 08:49									#332
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poll on the bug/trick issue gone here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...d=1675922&t=845

Last edited by Mathemagician on 30-01-2003 at 09:26

	30-01-2003 09:24									#333
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Fine job here Math

	30-01-2003 18:02									#334
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quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: not exactly, ice. While I see your point, my point is exploiting game flaws to "equalize" and or to win games is not exactly what PBEM is all about or MP for that matter. Nor is it in my humble opinion fair gaming. A trick as it exploit's game flaw and creates an unfair "advantage" or "equalizing". As far as the production "trick" It is widely known and documented as part of the game. So it is not a flaw I think even the game designer commented on this fact. Face it different moves and strategies win this game on an even keel. That speaks volumes for one's abilities and skill at the game. Using hacks, cracks, bugs, cheats and the like just expresses one's desire to win at all cost's. Not one's skill at the game. Maquiladora I stand corrected, thanks. I did mean online games. I also saw that often more then not it was exposed and not freely shared as a community just with the tribe which they belonged. That accounts for the "cheat" factor and paranoia. Just look to GameLeague for a perfect example of this reality. Many defectors caused many times of discontent in CTP2. I followed that forum for quite a long time. Had they used a thread like this I am sure they would still be an ever growing community. The hard part here is it is a bug? what then should we do with it.? Step one is complete the community at large knows about it. Step two is we know how to use it. Step three vote on it's common use, should it be concidered a normal tactic or on a per game basis all in agreement usage. I think we agree it is a bug, most bugs here, if not all? Are banned unless all agree to it's use. I see no reason to treat these bug differently. So in my tiny vote it is a bug and should be banned unless all agree before the game. Keeping track is easy as we have done it will be stated in the description of the game in the thread of that game for all to see. The main reason for this is I have seen it's use in games and watch as an unfair advantage is taking place... I would suggest any and all players cease it's use until we as a community decide agreed? Just as Birdy suggested. Math It is tradition for the most part that you start a new thread describing the trick and create a poll asking the obvious should it be used or banned unless agreed upon prior to games starting, you up to the task?

Pete

Help me with my memory..but seems as though maybe a year or better, someone started to expose this rush-buy thingey, I was at the tme unaware, and IIRC, some folks got upset about bringing these things to light.
I, myself, think that these things that you and Math are speaking of, should be brought out for exposure so we all may vote to or not to use. I thank you again for your intellectual input and wisdom beyond all my years and as allways, look forward to seeking out the truth, and yes "Follow me" applies to all, including forgiveness.


Peace

Troll

	30-01-2003 18:42									#335
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Tis a great community we have here Troll and this one is Math's show.

I do agree 100% in chatting about this stuff, simply it makes for better gaming and obviously a better game community.

If memory serves me right with the exception of a few, the one's winning games with the not very well known at the time rbt, were the one's upset with it's exposure.


Cheers

	31-01-2003 03:03									#336
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Tis a great community we have here Troll and this one is Math's show. I do agree 100% in chatting about this stuff, simply it makes for better gaming and obviously a better game community. If memory serves me right with the exception of a few, the one's winning games with the not very well known at the time rbt, were the one's upset with it's exposure. Cheers

Yup, I dont remember exactly who or whom but do remember the thread and thinking why NOT share with rest of us..

Thanks Pete again for your input!

Together, we stand at the precipice...and will build a strong community..

amazing as old as this game is, we still find ways to re-invent the wheel!!


Peace!

Troll

	31-01-2003 07:35									#337
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I hate to say it again but this is exactly where Gameleague and CTP2 failed and we succeeded.

Ok on to space nukes and pollution, if it is at all possible avoid going into space when you do not need to.

We all get that first space plane and or fighter and want to test it out right. I know I do but...I have noticed correct me if I am wrong but that pollution is cumulative. Right from that first test flight you get pollution increase for your civ.

From that first space launch on your civ takes a hit. Use them when you need them. Now add nukes to this mix as we all know your civ takes a major hit in pollution when you launch a nuke. If you have been launching space units before this well again correct me if I am wrong but it takes many turns more for your civ's pollution to come under control.

Make sure if you can you have anti pollution improvements in place well before you launch or nuke.
If you can get the sensitorium first that is the time to strike and strike hard.

Load space planes with units and at least one with all nukes and add space fighters in space. You can quite easly take over a dozen cities in a wide area with this combination. Drop a space fighter to activate air defence drop the space plane with the troops in an equal spaced pace from the target cities. Drop the space plane with the nukes in the same zone. Combine this with well placed spies, infectors, and any other muck em up special units and you can destroy a medium sized civ in a matter of turns.

Hit the target cities with the nukes and walk in. Now also remember clean up those scorched areas in your civ because when the flooding starts it is the pollution on the ground that determines for the most part what civ loses land the most. Remember also if you are at peace with this civ active air defence will not go off.

So make sure to break the peace with an attack first.

Now we know all this pollution destroys the planet oppps So be ready.

Now a nasty trick is to let the civ take back thier cities after this attack. The pollution then counts against them not you. This alone can stagnate that player for some time to come. It will take two nukes to remove a city from the planet, so thier capitol and or key production cities could be removed all together.

If you have two against one it is an effect point and equalizer as that civ will be some time cleaning and managing thier environment, replacing lost troops building city size back up, and improvements. You can now effectively go to work with diplomacy to stablize you situation.

Any comments?

	31-01-2003 08:03									#338
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by blackice I hate to say it again but this is exactly where Gameleague and CTP2 failed and we succeeded. Ok on to space nukes and pollution, if it is at all possible avoid going into space when you do not need to. We all get that first space plane and or fighter and want to test it out right. I know I do but...I have noticed correct me if I am wrong but that pollution is cumulative. Right from that first test flight you get pollution increase for your civ. From that first space launch on your civ takes a hit. Use them when you need them. Now add nukes to this mix as we all know your civ takes a major hit in pollution when you launch a nuke. If you have been launching space units before this well again correct me if I am wrong but it takes many turns more for your civ's pollution to come under control. Make sure if you can you have anti pollution improvements in place well before you launch or nuke. If you can get the sensitorium first that is the time to strike and strike hard. Load space planes with units and at least one with all nukes and add space fighters in space. You can quite easly take over a dozen cities in a wide area with this combination. Drop a space fighter to activate air defence drop the space plane with the troops in an equal spaced pace from the target cities. Drop the space plane with the nukes in the same zone. Combine this with well placed spies, infectors, and any other muck em up special units and you can destroy a medium sized civ in a matter of turns. Hit the target cities with the nukes and walk in. Now also remember clean up those scorched areas in your civ because when the flooding starts it is the pollution on the ground that determines for the most part what civ loses land the most. Remember also if you are at peace with this civ active air defence will not go off. So make sure to break the peace with an attack first. Now we know all this pollution destroys the planet oppps So be ready. Now a nasty trick is to let the civ take back thier cities after this attack. The pollution then counts against them not you. This alone can stagnate that player for some time to come. It will take two nukes to remove a city from the planet, so thier capitol and or key production cities could be removed all together. If you have two against one it is an effect point and equalizer as that civ will be some time cleaning and managing thier environment, replacing lost troops building city size back up, and improvements. You can now effectively go to work with diplomacy to stablize you situation. Any comments?

I will say this, you certainly have it figured out!

So you hit with multiple attacks at multiple levels, military, espionage,stealth and Nuclear.

Hmm..me thinks me has to go back to drawing board!

I do like the fact that this strategy has a **Disclaimer** that being that as good as it is, it will have major implications ifin you dont have something to combat the pollution factors!!

I remember one of my first game, and lost all sorts of my major coastal cities, producing subs,battleships and troop ships, then WOW! no more coast or shorline!!



Troll

	31-01-2003 09:44									#339
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quote: Originally posted by blackice IMake sure if you can you have anti pollution improvements in place well before you launch or nuke. If you can get the sensitorium first that is the time to strike and strike hard. Load space planes with units and at least one with all nukes and add space fighters in space. You can quite easly take over a dozen cities in a wide area with this combination. Drop a space fighter to activate air defence drop the space plane with the troops in an equal spaced pace from the target cities. Drop the space plane with the nukes in the same zone. Combine this with well placed spies, infectors, and any other muck em up special units and you can destroy a medium sized civ in a matter of turns. Hit the target cities with the nukes and walk in. Now also remember clean up those scorched areas in your civ because when the flooding starts it is the pollution on the ground that determines for the most part what civ loses land the most. Remember also if you are at peace with this civ active air defence will not go off. So make sure to break the peace with an attack first. Any comments?

Yes.

Your attack-strategy is exactly what I do fear in Giant Bird - and that's why you find 50% (or more) of my troops scattered out in garrisons and on airbases more than two tiles away from cities. And WarWalkers placed on odd places where an emeny just might drop in from above for a visit.

So remember this: When you can "smell" the nukes, then it is time to take a great part of your army out in the fields - away from cities. Stack them in 4 or 5 but never in 7-8 or 9. Then they will be too attractive.

And never have a ship without active airdefense in the tile next to a city. It it a perfect goal. When nuked it will take all units in the city with it in death.

	02-02-2003 08:32									#340
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Anyone use city clocks or televisions?

	02-02-2003 08:35									#341
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televisions are good if your opponent doesnt have hollywood. they cost 50 and give 5 per citizen, so for cities considerably larger than 10 they are quite valuable.
city clocks break even at population 5, they cost 5 and give 1 per citizen, but their large production cost makes them rather unattractive. i build them, but relatively late, when they take 1, 2 or 3 turns and the city goes above 10.

	02-02-2003 16:34									#342
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The gold from both TVs and city clocks is increased by gold improvements, so if you have a marketplace and bank the TVs break even at 5 pop, and the clocks between 2 and 3. If you have an airport it's even better. I generally build TVs at 7 pop (when they are built the city's probably reached pop 8 and they give +30 gold), and clocks once they can be built in 3 turns, like Mathemagician.

	02-02-2003 18:42									#343
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway The gold from both TVs and city clocks is increased by gold improvements, so if you have a marketplace and bank the TVs break even at 5 pop, and the clocks between 2 and 3. If you have an airport it's even better. I generally build TVs at 7 pop (when they are built the city's probably reached pop 8 and they give +30 gold), and clocks once they can be built in 3 turns, like Mathemagician.

Same here!!!

Troll

	02-02-2003 21:07									#344
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway The gold from both TVs and city clocks is increased by gold improvements, so if you have a marketplace and bank the TVs break even at 5 pop, and the clocks between 2 and 3. If you have an airport it's even better. I generally build TVs at 7 pop (when they are built the city's probably reached pop 8 and they give +30 gold), and clocks once they can be built in 3 turns, like Mathemagician.

yep. forgot that you usually have both marketplace and bank when you ask yourself if you should build TV and clock.

	04-02-2003 07:57									#345
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When I first joined apolyton, I actually thought that diety level AI were un-beatable. They seemed to build up science "so quick" compared to what I could do.

Well I have been reading threads like this and it really has helped a lot. Last game SP game I played I one by 1400AD agains four AI on a regular map. The PG was an exponential curve the whole way. What a difference.

Thanks to all who spill there strategies.

	04-02-2003 12:18									#346
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checkMate

	05-02-2003 03:23									#347
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Glad to hear it, Mate!

	05-02-2003 08:14									#348
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Thats the whole idea here

The more people who do tell all the more competition they create the better games they have.

What more could one ask for

	05-02-2003 08:28									#349
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I would like to go back to nukes and pollution a a game strategy if I may.

Birdy you had mentioned you had basically countered this strategy. Which you have to the best it can be.

Now think of this, you launched that first strike well before you enemies. They now have backed off, if they are smart that is.

Ok now the choices begin, you have pollution under control but you civ takes a hit for the pollution. Drop your production down and pollution is in control in a few turns or keep it up and 3-4 turns.

If the other nations do not have pollution under control you have a few choices. Launch another major attack on you enemy and or all your enemies all at once.

Now the world pollution goes through the roof but because you have pollution under control your civ will receive minor global effects.

Those nations with polluted squares and or out of control pollution will now lose cities and lose some very major cities due to your attacks.

Again drop your production way down concentrate on science for a few turns. you can in effect cause major slow downs to your rivals with minimum damage to your civ.

By the time they recover you are in space and ready to attack any major city world wide. For some time to come if not till the end of the game you will be well ahead of the others. Consider this every 5-10 turns wipe out major cities in one rivals land.....Especially if you have the sensitorium you could go on all game with that wonder in your hands.

So while most neglect the use of nukes because of the pollution factor, some use it to thier advantage...

Do not be scared of nukes and pollution learn to control it. Again combine this with your specialized troops, infectors etc. and watch your enimies cringe in pain.

	05-02-2003 08:44									#350
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one could also call that bug abuse, blackice.
i doubt the pollution thing was meant that way by the programmers...
i mean, cause it yourself and blame it on your enemies....

	06-02-2003 10:37									#351
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your funny in fact pollution was definately intended by the programers, again read thier notes and interviews.

OK tell me you are one of those turn pollution off so we can produce as much pollution as production allows without dire consequences to the planet around us onliners? Ya lets take out pollution, nukes, special units, etc.. Hey lets play risk

Oh that's another game....

Right from the onset with sid's board game pollution was a factor. The depressing point was no natural disasters were or have been inclued in any computer game since.... Too bad it would be cool see the balance imbalance of that factor.

Expounding on the strategy of the intended pollution factor, happiness and all that follows with that concept, gold science etc....Think about it. Each advance has it's own strategy and depending on how far ahead you are creates it's own options.

It is nice to see you have grasped the concept Math. Your enimies while trying to either out pace you in science or trying to dominate you with military and production. Will fall to this concept, thier is a counter to this but most take the military route.

Only a few I have seen have taken the other route such is civ. If you have this ability and the world attacks you you launch every single nuke you have. Doomsday check out TNT or humm Birdy help with this one what was the last game Clair was in? She played this straegy to the hilt.

Man the polution, man what a game it was great!
No not a bug reality, a good reason why several schools and universities around the world use this game now as a teaching tool...

Now after ingoing the farm under city bug since the original game of civilization. I have been busy calculating the odds using it without the opponent using it. Growth is 5 to 1, that means over all an opponent has a 3 to 1 better odds of winning this game dispite the terrain.

Obviously that is based on the average, if your opponent happens to have rivers and mountains you have a tough road ahead. 20 to 1 I figure......

So all people in games with an opponent using this until now disclosed "bug" do not dispare... You now know why your getting you but licked

Last edited by blackice on 06-02-2003 at 10:52

	06-02-2003 12:37									#352
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Ehm, there IS a difference between having your butt kicked , and having it licked .

	06-02-2003 17:27									#354
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quote: Originally posted by blackice your funny in fact pollution was definately intended by the programers, again read thier notes and interviews. OK tell me you are one of those turn pollution off so we can produce as much pollution as production allows without dire consequences to the planet around us onliners? Ya lets take out pollution, nukes, special units, etc.. Hey lets play risk Oh that's another game.... Right from the onset with sid's board game pollution was a factor. The depressing point was no natural disasters were or have been inclued in any computer game since.... Too bad it would be cool see the balance imbalance of that factor. Expounding on the strategy of the intended pollution factor, happiness and all that follows with that concept, gold science etc....Think about it. Each advance has it's own strategy and depending on how far ahead you are creates it's own options. It is nice to see you have grasped the concept Math. Your enimies while trying to either out pace you in science or trying to dominate you with military and production. Will fall to this concept, thier is a counter to this but most take the military route. Only a few I have seen have taken the other route such is civ. If you have this ability and the world attacks you you launch every single nuke you have. Doomsday check out TNT or humm Birdy help with this one what was the last game Clair was in? She played this straegy to the hilt. Man the polution, man what a game it was great! No not a bug reality, a good reason why several schools and universities around the world use this game now as a teaching tool... Now after ingoing the farm under city bug since the original game of civilization. I have been busy calculating the odds using it without the opponent using it. Growth is 5 to 1, that means over all an opponent has a 3 to 1 better odds of winning this game dispite the terrain. Obviously that is based on the average, if your opponent happens to have rivers and mountains you have a tough road ahead. 20 to 1 I figure...... So all people in games with an opponent using this until now disclosed "bug" do not dispare... You now know why your getting you but licked

I do have one point to offer, scenario making aside, it IS an option to remove pollution,special units,nukes,ect., it IS offered as a variance in game play that anyone can opt for, so it was intended by the programmers to be there. I dont agree that pollution is a bug, I think it is very smart of to do what was described about nuking and having anti-pollution in place in the owners civ.

But I wholeheartdely disagree with the point about playing without pollution or as I enjoy playing without certain units. Its a built-in readily available option, intended by the programmers for us to use as an option

Peace

Troll

	06-02-2003 23:54									#355
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Ok, one other point, in Ages Of Empire:The Conquerors I play a lot too, and you can have "ALL TECH enabled or disabled, most folks don not want all tech because of the various unevevn gameplay it causes, .....me..I like all tech in that game, but most dont

It is however an option but more people want to have all tech turned off in that game.

My point here is as in AOE, CTP also put in place a very easily used option, INTENDED to offer varying styles of gameplay.

I have the option as owner of my copy to "Exclude" functions, just an option is all

Troll

	10-02-2003 14:56									#356
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Does anyone have a strong opinion of whether or not to build nuclear plants? I can never decide whether they are worth the trouble...

	10-02-2003 15:19									#357
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I do.

Partly due to the increase of production, one can always use a little more - but also because it reduce the unhappiness caused by pollution.

Those two factors combined makes them worth to build - IMHO.

	10-02-2003 15:22									#358
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Does anyone have a strong opinion of whether or not to build nuclear plants? I can never decide whether they are worth the trouble...

I believe you should constantly strive to increase production, among other things. If you can "spare" production for investment, it is usually a good idea to build nuclear plants. Also, quantum physics are sometimes discovered when pollution is an issue, and nuclear plants reduce pollution by 50%. Meltdowns don't occur in ctp.

95% of the time, an excellent investment.

-David42one

	11-02-2003 05:23									#359
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes for all of the above reasons I can add no more just do it.

Ok temples now I noticed if one builds one temple in the early stages of the game in your capitol, it increases the overall happiness of your civ by 1-2 points.

No more 73-72 happiness early on, any comments or observations about the divided to build or not to build temples early?

	11-02-2003 06:08									#360
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Yes for all of the above reasons I can add no more just do it. Ok temples now I noticed if one builds one temple in the early stages of the game in your capitol, it increases the overall happiness of your civ by 1-2 points. No more 73-72 happiness early on, any comments or observations about the divided to build or not to build temples early?

Excellent point!

On a related note, spreading out, I often switch a Capitol to a new, more central location.

Additionally, Pete, I read somewhere anEXTREMELY interesting thought:

Switch Capitol City Name from one city to another so as some more devious players wont sack the actual Capitol, but a mere Clone of a Capitol

I have thought that may help you avoid that huge unhappiness hit losing your Capitol!


Peace

Grandpa Troll
(Pictures soon to follow)