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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by duke o' york
The trouble with airlifts is that they require airports. Great if you want to move stuff quickly across the map, but they also give you vet air units. This is going to be a certain victory for whichever civ gets the airport techs. |
I'm not sure that victory becomes significantly easier when building vet flying units. At the moment I tend to throw them against anything that moves in order to get them vet status anyway and then use the vets for the main attack. IMO, being able to build them as vets just makes it slightly easier, and means less drudgery.
RJM at Sleeper's
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrion
But now a few questions:
1) how to call the telportation improvement? |
I think I remember that there is a device in The Last Continent built in the high energy magic lab. Did that have a name?
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2) I have 4 "places" (Holy Wood, Bel Shamaroth, etc.) where I could give tech upon sacking, so what should I do: make the teleportation tech untradable and give the same tech in all 4 places, so that most have an opportunity to get i?? Or give another tech in 2 of the places?? |
My vote would be for a different tech in 2 places, if there is a suitable one avaiilable. It would have to be something that is very useful, but not crucial.
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3) should the teleportation tech be untradable?? |
I don't think it need be made untradeable. Because of their nature, the AI civs will not deliberately sack one of these places. After that it's up to the human player whether he (or she) trades it.
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4) Do you agree with the idea of a really expensive "airport" (around 3-400 shields, maybe??) ? |
It's a useful thing to have, but not vital. Therefore expensive, but not so costly that it never gets built. I suspect it should be around the level of a superhighway in the vanila version - but I don't know how many shields that is.
RJM at Sleeper's
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I think I remember that there is a device in The Last Continent built in the high energy magic lab. Did that have a name?
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I don't think it had a name, but I can check nonetheless...
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My vote would be for a different tech in 2 places, if there is a suitable one avaiilable. It would have to be something that is very useful, but not crucial.
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I think I'll give Teleportation in 2 places, and National Hero (still researchable) in the 2 others! We'll try like that!
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I don't think it need be made untradeable. Because of their nature, the AI civs will not deliberately sack one of these places. After that it's up to the human player whether he (or she) trades it.
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I must admit I was thinking more along PBEM lines... So yes, you're probably right, let's make it tradable! (not so easy, though, if I want it unresearchable! It'll maybe end up being untradable anyway...  )
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It's a useful thing to have, but not vital. Therefore expensive, but not so costly that it never gets built. I suspect it should be around the level of a superhighway in the vanila version - but I don't know how many shields that is.
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Yes, the price will be in that area, I guess, so that it is built, but not everywhere! 
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I'm not sure that victory becomes significantly easier when building vet flying units. At the moment I tend to throw them against anything that moves in order to get them vet status anyway and then use the vets for the main attack. IMO, being able to build them as vets just makes it slightly easier, and means less drudgery.
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I remembered that you wrote you did, that's why I think vet flying units shouldn't be such a change! 
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I think they should stay at the strength they are. It allready takes 20 vet flying units to capture Ankh-Morpork.
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Yes, I'll keep them how they are!
And anyway, taking A-M is an heroic deed, so why use flying units... 
I'll update the scen with most of your last comments and send it, along with a list of the modifications I did!
BTW: still waiting for more "Librarian" proposals...
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duke o' york
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Major problem!
The barbarian heroes have dried up completely! When rjm suggested that they were too easy to come by, you said that you'd make them appear less often, but the villages still appear every turn after you've destroyed one. Could it be that you've made it so that the barbarian villages only give you a hero once every (say) 10 turns, whereas you should have had it that the villages only reappear once every 10 turns? I wasted loads of scout units for no reward whatsoever. 
I'm playing as Omnia (winter '42 at the moment), and am quite pleased with my progress so far. 
I lost the easternmost city to the Independents quite early, and now Klatch have captured it, but I don't care about getting it back. I made a point of capturing (and holding) Chirm very early so that I'd have a free run to dump all of my caravans into A-M. I'm running a power fundy and am ahead in tech by this method. A-M keep declaring war on me, losing a few scouts against Chirm's Divine Legion2s and then suing for peace the next turn. 
I used exquisitors a fair bit but now I have the turtle tank things. They're cool! I took Ephebe eventually (they had about 8 billion crossbowmen to defend it), and got some good wonders just by getting a single food caravan into Kom, and then buying the rest of the shields. There was no urgency, but otherwise I have too much money, and it makes the other civs jealous.
I've got aqueducts in all my cities, but no sewers yet. Delighted with my progress, and especially with the progress of one sailboat, as it made it most of the way across the sea, and survived for 4 turns before sinking.
Cyrion, I know that too many cooks might spoil the broth and mean that you put back the launch of this scenario for ages, but maybe we could get La Fayette on board as a playtester. Just a thought.
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I am confused.  (You see I told you I was confused. )
I didn't realise You (Cyrion) had released a version in which there was a limitation on the number of heroes.
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Neither did I
I rechecked the latest .zip I sent, and here is what changed regarding the heroes in it: I just added a text saying you had recruited a hero every time 1 is created
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The barbarian heroes have dried up completely! When rjm suggested that they were too easy to come by, you said that you'd make them appear less often, but the villages still appear every turn after you've destroyed one. Could it be that you've made it so that the barbarian villages only give you a hero once every (say) 10 turns, whereas you should have had it that the villages only reappear once every 10 turns? I wasted loads of scout units for no reward whatsoever.
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Sorry about your scouts
As I wrote above, I think I only changed the text upon hiring a hero
And what I intend to do for the next modification (hiopefully tonight/tomorrow) is exactly what you said: make the village reappear every 8-10 rounds, and of course give a hero everytime it is destroyed!
I'll test that before sending, this time... 
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I'm playing as Omnia (winter '42 at the moment), and am quite pleased with my progress so far.
I lost the easternmost city to the Independents quite early, and now Klatch have captured it, but I don't care about getting it back. I made a point of capturing (and holding) Chirm very early so that I'd have a free run to dump all of my caravans into A-M. I'm running a power fundy and am ahead in tech by this method. A-M keep declaring war on me, losing a few scouts against Chirm's Divine Legion2s and then suing for peace the next turn.
I used exquisitors a fair bit but now I have the turtle tank things. They're cool!
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Strong enough but not too strong?
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I took Ephebe eventually (they had about 8 billion crossbowmen to defend it),
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Yes, that was the idea! I mean, it is an interesting city to own, isn't it??
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and got some good wonders just by getting a single food caravan into Kom, and then buying the rest of the shields. There was no urgency, but otherwise I have too much money, and it makes the other civs jealous.
I've got aqueducts in all my cities, but no sewers yet. Delighted with my progress, and especially with the progress of one sailboat, as it made it most of the way across the sea, and survived for 4 turns before sinking.
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Did you hire Llamedos Jones as a navigator??
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Cyrion, I know that too many cooks might spoil the broth and mean that you put back the launch of this scenario for ages, but maybe we could get La Fayette on board as a playtester. Just a thought.
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What an horrible thing to do: proposing to a scen creator that LF might give his scen a try, and dismember it (erh... win the game ) în 10-20 turns! 
Of course, it's an excellent idea! If you can convince Michel to help, he is more than welcome!
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duke o' york
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The problem with the heroes is that I get the message, but don't get any heroes. I'm guessing that Kom is my capital, because it has the fortress there, but I didn't receive any heroes, even when I had all the starting cities.
The message for the heroes is great, but I'd have flattened Ephebe long before I did if I'd got a few of them.
Maybe it's just a problem with Omnia. Try a quick test with them to see if you can get heroes. I'm sure that my Civ 2 is all right, but if I've got a bug then I'd like to know about it! I'll send LF a PM and ask him if he'd like me to e-mail him the beta. Even better, I'll just put him in touch with you Cyrion, if that's all right. That way he can get the latest versions when they appear.
Really enjoying it so far, and have not come to depend upon the heroes, as I thought I might. On the other hand, I have come to depend heavily upon the trading wonders of A-M.
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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OK, first of all I would like to apologize: I wanted to modify / test / send the new file yesterday evening, so that you would have time to test it over the week-end, but I wasn't quick enough, and at 1h30 AM decided to go to bed...
The Hero creation problem is solved, and it was indeed caused by "parasite" units in A-M and Kom! The villages, after destruction, reappear a few turns later (won't tell you how many...).
I then changed the events related to Bel Shamaroth & Co, added a Teleportation tech and Teleportation Gate improvement!
Then my event file proved slightly too big, so I'll just need to make some surgical removal in my comments till the size fits, and test the result before I can send the file!
Some descriptions (Teleportation related, and about the Librarian intervention) still need to be written too (but that wouldn't influence the testing, so I might send the file before that!)
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrion
OK, first of all I would like to apologize: |
There's nothing to apologize for - were all here because we enjoy it.
Glad to hear that you've sorted out the problems and added some new features. I look forward to seeing them in action.
RJM at Sleeper's
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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OK, I played around 50 turns with Ramtop Kingdoms, and all is well!
I now have 13 cities: I conquered all of the Ankh valley and Sto Plains (except for A-M itself, of course, and Sto Lat) as well as a few other cities (Pseudopolis, Quirm, ...).
The Nac Mac Feegle are efficient little pests (with their offense of 6), and the heroes help too!
I shouldn't be the one saying so, but I really enjoyed playing this!
Now, I'm eager to see how it behaves when the "special events" occur...
And if RK is really the hardest, then the scen definitely isn't too difficult! (its 1st part, at least...)
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rjmatsleepers
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I have played a few turns with Klatch. I love the new messages and at least one of the barbarian villages is working well. (This comment is not intended to imply that the other isn't - I simply haven't visited it.)
The trade goods seem to have become truncated - magical s, sapient p, etc. Actually, this happened on the previous version as well, but I forgot to mention it.
The post by LF in the strategy forum reminds me to ask - have you set any victory conditions?
RJM at Sleeper's
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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Ok, I played a bit further, and am now around turn 100!
I now have 23 cities, and just took Ankh-Morpork 
For that, I needed 2 heroes, death, and a few witches!
I had dispatched the 3 horsemen with 3 heroes a few turn before!
I noticed a small problem (which is now corrected, but will appear in your game): the dragons keep on appearing even if the Wyrmberg is destroyed (which, BTW, required 2 heroes in my game ).
Next turn, the Gods should make their apparition, follow in a few turns by Bel-Shamaroth, Pyramid of Tsort and the others!
If this goes well, then release is imminent! (unless you find other problems, of course)
Apart from the small Dragon problem, everything is quite smooth, and I have been busy every turn!
The "places" apparition seem to be timed right, as it will be around the middle game!
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Actually, A-M is a bit of a pain - every now and then it attacks a merchant or a sailing ship. However, I don't want to take it out because it is too good a destination for merchants.
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Yes, I'm still not sure taking it in my game was a smart move! But I had to test its defences, for test sake
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The only thing I've noticed apart from the trade goods being truncated is that the description of the submarine tech says that it increases space ship thrust by 25%
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So that the tech brings something even if you're not the first to discover it
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Also I've not had a message about the gods coming down to take revenge. Presumably that is tech related and we've not reached that point in the tech tree.
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Correct
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I've had very little trouble from the orange meanies - presumably they are pounding ramtops or one of the other civs that I've had no contact with yet.
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They're not bothering me either (and I'm playing Ramtop Kingdoms)! I'm beginning to wonder if I did weaken them a bit too much...
On the other hand, I know the scen well enough (obviously ) to be able to react quickly against them and prevent them from doing much harm...
Let's see what the others experience...
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The thing to the south east of Jelly Belly has not yet started spouting bad guys which is a shame since they are a good way of getting vet status for your carpets.
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You want them? Then do some research...
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I may have to take out that pyramid (near Otherz?) in the hope of getting teleportation from it - meta gaming I know, but presumably legitimate when play testing.
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Perfectly legitimate
BTW, I thought about the victory conditions! Here is what I could propose (cumulative conditions ):
1) hold all 5 initial capitals (i.e. A-M, Kom, Al-Khali, Bonk and Lancre)
2) the city of Ee is destroyed : forcing you to be quite advanced, as the appearance of the City is triggered by a tech far up (or down??) the tech tree
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rjmatsleepers
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Kom fell to a force of 30 carpets and Ankh-Morpork (which the AI had allowed to shrink to size 10) fell to a similar attack. The Morporkian civilization is no more while Om is reduced to a couple of formerly Independent cities that are out of range of my carpets.
71 Hour Ahmed carried the portal closure spell and destroyed the lost city of Ee. Unfortunately he was ambushed on the way back by an orange meanie. I think the destruction of Ee deserves some sort of message. Seeing it simply disapear was a bit of an anti-climax.
I destroyed the temple thingie in the south west corner and recieved the teleportation tech. I then built a couple of teleportation gates, but I couldn't get them to work. I was trying to teleport some public workers from one end of the empire to the other. I'm not sure whether I was not using it correctly, whether you can't teleport public workers or whether there is a problem with the implementation.
The great pyramid near Jelly Baby finally appeared. I got a couple of vet carpets from it, but then decided to destroy it. I gathered 3 barbarian warriors for the job, but it fell to the first - I wonder whether you should make it a bit stronger.
I also destroyed the island thingie (phlesh?). That took quite a few carpets. The reward of 4,000 gold simply took my treasury from 25,000 to 29,000. Despite the message about losing ships, I seemed to have all my sailing ships intact - perhaps it was just atmospheric.
The only problem I have found is that clicking on the view button in the city report window causes the game to crash. I'm not sure whether this is a standard problem with scenarios, a problem with my set up or something you can fix.
BTW, a few weeks ago I I mentioned a "doo-hickey"
quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Something happened in this game that may be a bug or may be a feature. I noticed an orange "doo-hickey" on the map close to one of my cities. I suspected it might be the source of the orange bad guys so I sent a Hero to investigate with a couple of carpets riding shotgun. I didn't notice that I'd left my city undefended, so the DD walked in and at that point the "doo-hickey" disapeared. Sorry that this is not a more helpful description of what happened - if I get a chance, I'll look at the units to see if I can recognise the "doo-hickey".
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Well I've found out what it was. It was a size 1 city with no name. I think that there is a shortage of names, so when the AI builds a new city it doesn't get a name. It might be worth providing each civ with 3 or 4 names - I don't think they will build many cities, but in my current game, Om appears to have built at least 3.
As far as your victory conditions are concerned, they look good - although you might think about weakening the first so that the human only has to control 4 of the 5 initial capitals. It does take a long time to reach the far flung parts of the disk. In year 79, I have had no contact with Ramtop or Uberwald(?)
I think that the latest game is very good and you are within touching distance of a release version
RJM at Sleeper's
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Kom fell to a force of 30 carpets and Ankh-Morpork (which the AI had allowed to shrink to size 10) fell to a similar attack. The Morporkian civilization is no more while Om is reduced to a couple of formerly Independent cities that are out of range of my carpets.
71 Hour Ahmed carried the portal closure spell and destroyed the lost city of Ee.
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Well done
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I think the destruction of Ee deserves some sort of message. Seeing it simply disapear was a bit of an anti-climax.
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I thought there was a message
Put it down as a senior moment from my part...
I'll correct that (hopefully the event size will allow for 1 more line of text... otherwise I'll have to cut in the other descriptions... )
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I destroyed the temple thingie in the south west corner and recieved the teleportation tech. I then built a couple of teleportation gates, but I couldn't get them to work. I was trying to teleport some public workers from one end of the empire to the other. I'm not sure whether I was not using it correctly, whether you can't teleport public workers or whether there is a problem with the implementation.
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There shouldn't be any problem with PW using an airport! 
Could it be that the "original" Radio tech is needed for an airport to be buildable??
If yes, I'll then have to change the tech, and find new graphics and descriptions for the "airbases", as those would become available at the same time...
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The great pyramid near Jelly Baby finally appeared. I got a couple of vet carpets from it, but then decided to destroy it. I gathered 3 barbarian warriors for the job, but it fell to the first - I wonder whether you should make it a bit stronger.
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I think you were just lucky, as all those have the same strength (except for the City of Ee), and I needed on average 2 Barb heroes, and sometimes 3 Heroes or 2 Heroes and 2 witches! And I was lucky once and needed only 1 Hero!
But I might raise teir defense by 1 or 2...
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I also destroyed the island thingie (phlesh?). That took quite a few carpets. The reward of 4,000 gold simply took my treasury from 25,000 to 29,000. Despite the message about losing ships, I seemed to have all my sailing ships intact - perhaps it was just atmospheric.
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It depends where you closest ship was... But I might enlarge the "sinking" area...
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The only problem I have found is that clicking on the view button in the city report window causes the game to crash. I'm not sure whether this is a standard problem with scenarios, a problem with my set up or something you can fix.
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Never saw that, but I'll check! I think it might come from you set up...
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BTW, a few weeks ago I I mentioned a "doo-hickey"
Well I've found out what it was. It was a size 1 city with no name. I think that there is a shortage of names, so when the AI builds a new city it doesn't get a name. It might be worth providing each civ with 3 or 4 names - I don't think they will build many cities, but in my current game, Om appears to have built at least 3.
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Yes, I would need a list of 5 names for each civ! Suggestions, anybody, please??
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As far as your victory conditions are concerned, they look good - although you might think about weakening the first so that the human only has to control 4 of the 5 initial capitals. It does take a long time to reach the far flung parts of the disk. In year 79, I have had no contact with Ramtop or Uberwald(?)
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Yeah, 4 out of 5 + City of Ee might do it (except for La Fayette, for whom it would then be much too easy )
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I think that the latest game is very good and you are within touching distance of a release version
RJM at Sleeper's |
Thanks my friend!
I think we did a good team work!
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
The onward march of the Klatchian army continues. Om and Ram Tops are now included in the ancient history lessons in Klatchian schools. I attacked Holywood with 1 barbarian warrior and lost. So I gathered 2 warriors and of course, the first 1 won on its own.
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See! I told you 1 was sometimes not enough!
Nonetheless, you might be right: 1 or 2 points more in defense might be useful! Will see what the others experienced!
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I am now engaged in the final struggle with Uberwald. It's vampires are turning out to be remarkably tenacious. I'm guessing that they get a terrain bonus - if so, is that intentional? Do other civs similar units also get such a bonus? (I think the turtles do, but that's OK because they are a ground unit.)
[QUOTE]
Not my fault
It's a civII feature which (I think) can't be modified: ALL units, even flying ones, get the terrain bonus, as unlogical as it might seem! I even suppose that a stranded ship on a mountain (Noah's Ark, anyone?) would get it (not sure, though)...
And you probably notice is more because Uberwald is so mountainous!
[QUOTE]
In this game, Dunmanifestin has not appeared - remember I stopped researching after Via Cloaka and I stopped delivering merchants after the fall of Ankh Morpork so nobody has discovered the appropriate technology. Does this bother you? If so, you may wish to re-jig the tech tree to make a path that triggers it more desireable.
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It doesn't bother me overly, as some players might be more interested in research than you are
And the Gods are not that far on the tech tree...
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I'll give some thought to additional names. Presumably you'd prefer them to be part of the book already. I tend to make up new puns of my own. For example playing as A M I found a new city straight away to get a food delivery and I call it Sto Ksity. Similarly, the city founded to provide a staging post for the wizards to move north is Sto Nacrose.
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I think you couldn't find many cities in the book that aren't already on the map! And those wouldn't be built at the right place, so I think your own puns would be better
But remember that the Sto cities would be appropriate only in the Sto plains, so for A-M
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BTW teleportation gates do not produce veteran carpets - I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
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No surprise there, if the "airports" are not working, don't you think?
I'll correct the fact they don't work!
What name could I give to the "airbases" that could then be built??
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duke o' york
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Sorry I haven't been here for a while.  I only managed to get a few turns in last Wednesday (before Easter), but my Omnian forces are doing quite well. I've crushed most of the cities in my path with the turtles, but haven't taken any capitals yet (well, apart from the Independents ). The trouble with Om is that because you don't have the chance to make any RRs, and the turtles only have a move of 1, it takes forever to get anywhere, and especially to get enough forces into position to take any well-defended cities. Mind you, I'm still playing the second edition, as I only got the 3rd this morning (through not checking my e-mail, rather then Cyrion being slow), so I can't use barbarians to beef up my attacks. I'm looking forward to downloading and playing the newer version though.
Apart from the barbarians and the Klatchian worker who starts the game right next to Kom, and who gets killed straightaway (either by me, or by the Independents), then the only problem I have is that Om never get any new workers, whereas in the other games I have played, Klatch and Ramtop both get new workers. It is tough to maintain a large empire with only the two workers that you begin with. Hint, hint . Building roads between all my new and newly-conquered cities is tough, especially when I have to defend the workers against orange and pruple incursions. Without roads then I can't concentrate my forces enough in time to get any decent attacks going.
Really enjoying the scenario, but I imagine thta it would be far more difficult if I wasn't playing with Om and their fundy government.
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by duke o' york
Sorry I haven't been here for a while.
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No sweat
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The trouble with Om is that because you don't have the chance to make any RRs, and the turtles only have a move of 1, it takes forever to get anywhere, and especially to get enough forces into position to take any well-defended cities.
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True! Mind you, you have to pay a price for that dear fundy you like so much...
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Mind you, I'm still playing the second edition, as I only got the 3rd this morning (through not checking my e-mail, rather then Cyrion being slow), so I can't use barbarians to beef up my attacks. I'm looking forward to downloading and playing the newer version though.
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Too bad for you, as you'll see below...
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Apart from the barbarians and the Klatchian worker who starts the game right next to Kom, and who gets killed straightaway (either by me, or by the Independents),
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Both problem linked, and corrected in the version you should be already playing!
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then the only problem I have is that Om never get any new workers, whereas in the other games I have played, Klatch and Ramtop both get new workers.
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Same cause again, so already corrected! And in the version you play now (version 2 instead of 3), I can't guarantee you would get Deacon Vorbis or Death either... (though I think you would)
So you should REALLY try the new version...
BUT I'll probably post version 4 tonight, adressing the Teleportation problem (IF I find a solution, of course)
quote:
Really enjoying the scenario, but I imagine thta it would be far more difficult if I wasn't playing with Om and their fundy government. |
As I said, you pay for that by not having flying units...
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02-04-2004 11:30
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