28-05-2002 01:49									#211
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Comp scoring - everyone plays everyone - no other system can be considered.

If we have twenty players, that would be 19 games. Average game taking two weeks to play (using my availability) makes for forty weeks of games, no accounting for real life interruptions. Is everyone willing to commit a year to this endevor. Or will we have a myriad of dropouts. If players dropout, should there games even count count? Round-robins are fine if we have only ten players, but as the number of players grow the whole operation becomes unmanageable. No world championship series I know of uses a total round-robin system.

The swiss system has been used in chess for decades and is a proven system. The cream will rise to the top, and we won't need 400+ games to determine who is best. I also do do not relish arraigning games with a dozen or so Euro opponents and a handful of Far East opponents.

	28-05-2002 02:33									#212
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Comp scoring - everyone plays everyone - no other system can be considered.

I am in agreement with the round robin format. Games should take 6 to 12 hours (with an outside chance at 20 hours for two evenly and somewhat passive players). I strongly suggest people dedicating 6 to 8 hours to play their first session (getting up early or going to bed late for those in different time zones) and then fitting in 2 to 3 hours at a time to complete the game. That way the games will only take 1 or 2 weeks to complete.

yoda

	28-05-2002 03:02									#213
	Who is playing? Tired of ads?

I pick up this listing of players from the both the entry thread and this thread. If this is all that is playing I have no objection to a round robin with a playoff to break any tie at the end.

1. Gavrushka
2. Dragon1
3. Faded Glory
4. Filix
5. Darth Viper
6. Yoda
7. Patryn
8. Swissy
9. Milamber (withdrew)
10. Catete
11. Paulno1
12. Pin
13. Quinns

The above are confirmed entries from entry thread, closed at the begining of May.

Below are additional entries I have picked up reading
this thread.

14. DeVil (from entry thread, but not confirmed)
15. ZoboZeWarrior (may have just been commenting on rules)
16. Dr Doom (mentioned by Yoda as wanting to play)
17. Kansas (mentioned by Yoda as wanting to play)

If we can get confirmation of the final player list and finalize game setting there is a possibility of games starting second week of June

	28-05-2002 03:32									#214
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't set the rules in this comp- BUT I asked to find out who is the worlds best player and offered a prize for the winner - Unfortunately unless every player plays every other then I don't accept we have anything other than a tournament- Yoda and Paul MAY crush certain kinds of opposition - BUT unless they get the opportunity to play different kinds of strategy - for instance that of Quinns or Darth Viper - I don't see how we can find the worlds best - Just a guy that managed to beat his opponents -

I appreciate this will take 6 months to a year to complete... and I see that is irksome to some players - I'll double the prize to 1000USD - But I really do not want to sponsor a tournament - I asked for a league to see who came out top.

In this country we have tournaments for football - where teams are eliminated at various stages.... My team Middlesbrough made it to the Semis - beating the likes of Man Utd on the way - SO they can outplay Man Utd - they usually do - BUT they ain't the best team - just particulary suited to particular kinds of opposition - A league is the only opportunity for all styles to be matched against all others.


I agree though entry has to be limited- that was an early stipulation - certain players will have to Pre-qualify I believe- Blackice, Kralj, Solver- maybe you can help with this?

Last edited by Gavrushka on 28-05-2002 at 03:37

	28-05-2002 06:34									#215
	Increase Your PM Length

1000USD nice....When can we start?

	28-05-2002 06:54									#216
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If we have to continue a game, is that so much of a problem? How many of you plan to quit playing this game a year from now? I have no plans to quit this game until they come out with a much better game. And who knows how long that will be. We will just have to match all of the people who have similar schedules with each other in the beginning. Then when all of the opposing time-zones come into play, we will have more games that drag on into several continuations. We are here to consider the best players around and that should be all that matters, not the few extra hours you will spend playing a League game, which you would not normally spend on a normal game. On this gigantic map, most of the core strategies are represented. If we switched over to a regular map that would take 6-8 hours, and what do we have then? An sol slugfest? A map that favors the guy who is builds military the first. Those of you who want to go big military, and just get it over with, will just have to be patient and wait a bit longer to invade your enemy. Modern war is so much more fun that renaisance war anyway.

	28-05-2002 08:29									#217
	Steps to Set Up Your Computer For Competition Suffering from ads?

It looks like we have decided on using the comp2b map with one settler and 100 gold... So here are the steps to set the comp2b scenario up on your computer.

1. Create a new directory, "comp2", on your computer with the path: c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2.

2. Copy the attached "packlist.txt" file to the path: c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\packlist.txt

3. Create a new directory, "scen0000", on your computer with the path c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\scen0000.

4. Copy the attached "savegame.csg" file to the path: c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\scen0000\savegame.csg.

5. Copy the attached "scenario.txt" file to the path: c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\scen0000\scenario.txt.

6. Create a new directory, "default", on your computer with the path c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\default.

7. Create a new directory, "gamedata", on your computer with the path c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\default\gamedata.

8. Copy the attached "advance.txt" file to the path: c:\program files\activision\civilization-call to power\scenarios\comp2\default\gamedata\advance.txt.

(Someone please correct me where I am mistaken.)

Attachment: worldcomp.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	28-05-2002 12:19									#218
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nice one Quinns! Thanks!

	28-05-2002 22:53									#219
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You are welcome!

	29-05-2002 15:10									#220
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

hmmmm

	29-05-2002 15:39									#221
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

well im dropping out of the tourney, not that i think it will ever get underway lol, got accused of cheating in the premade map with yoda where i had 17k gold, god knows how. All i know was i had the worst lag ive ever had in that game
even tried rebooting my comp and it didnt fix it. Where i never have problems with yoda 1 v1 in the past, didnt even crash. Apparently i had not even built banks and markets in trade cities, whcih is very odd cause its teh most iimportant part of teh game. I dont know how it happened cant explain it. But me and yoda kept dead even on ranking, and i was only about 1/2 a centimetre ahead at teh end, but he was ahead on tec. If i was cheating i dont know how it could not be shown on the ranking, but what do i know i guess. I havent talked to yoda so i dont know what he thinks. But i have so many games with people that its pretty hard not to see if im doing something wrong in othergames. I would have been stupid to have cheated in that game even though i dont know how , cause i know he was gonna look at the map at the end. (He looked at our first map where the tec ended, as he said), though it seems this time he looked before the game was over. Unless he just sent it to the otehr person.
So anyway it was very weird cant explain it and have no proof yet taht it ever happened, but the premade maps seem to be quite buggy so i have no idea. Time will tell i guess.


ill still play anyone at there request and they can save everyturn to check if i cheat if they want i have nothing to hide
but if not its only a game

	29-05-2002 15:45									#222
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Enigmatic Paulno1!

Paul sorry the second post came up after I replied to your Hmmm.... I will say this catergorically - and I know plenty of people will agree- Paul would never cheat - Never has never will - Some things you just know - and I do not accept such an accussation - I certainly fo not want you to drop out of the tournament- because I am pretty sure you will win - it becomes meaningless without the favourite.

The tournament is due to start NOW - The map is finished- we have the rules in place- I will start a thread on the weekend - But whats the point If paul ain't in it....

Last edited by Gavrushka on 29-05-2002 at 15:53

	29-05-2002 16:11									#223
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Huh Paul, it's your call. But no, to answer your concerns, it will get underway. I think we will be playing in the first two weeks of June, no?

	29-05-2002 16:18									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interesting.

Were you host or second player in that game? How have the other test games gone? Does the host seem to have some sort of bug driven advantage? My tests have been against the AI and mainly to see if the tech tree worked, so I have no idea how the map really works in actual competition.

	29-05-2002 18:45									#225
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Don't drop out Paul!

Let's just resolve the accusation from Yoda. Many people accuse people of cheating all the time in the Internet Chess Club (ICC), (sorry to keep using the chess analogy, but it's the best one I know). I was accused of cheating in the ICC and got very angry with the accuser. The matter was easily resolved from an official who stepped in and exonerated me after reviewing the game in question. This won't be the first time someone is accused of cheating in our league, so let us all resolve this accusation now and set a method of dealing with a person accused of cheating.

Cheating -- Obviously, Yoda must have really thought Paulno1 did, in fact, cheat. It was the only way Yoda could explain what was happening in the game -- Paulno1 said himself that the game was buggy. However, Yoda did not make a public accusation, which was good. A panel of neutral observers should review the game and decide what really did happen. Yoda and Paul are probably the two best players in this league. A split here might ruin the whole group.

Personally, I do not think Paulno1 would ever cheat. It would serve him no purpose. I have never heard anyone accuse him of cheating, nor witnessed any such behavior in any games I have played with him. In fact, Paulno1 was the first one that told me, up front, about the rush-buy-switch trick BEFORE we started our game. He didn't have to do that at the time. It was not considered "illegal" then.

No, I do not think Paulno1 cheated. But let's get to the bottom of it so there is no question. So that simple accusations do not fragment this whole league.

	29-05-2002 20:30									#226
	Tired of ads?

Agreed absolutely - IF there are bugs in a premade map that lead to a mistaken conclusion then they must be looked at - better this now than in the middle of the comp.

Thanks for the intelligent post Quinns, and it would be good if Yoda can zip the saves and post them to someone to check - I think we are all in agreement that the accusation will prove mistaken....

	29-05-2002 20:50									#227
	Game Play Increase Your PM Length

First of all, I did NOT accuse Paul of cheating on the tournament map. Paul made an assumption there based on a conversation he had with another player. Let me be clear on this... I DID NOT accuse Paul of cheating on the tournament test map game that we played. The only question I had about that map after looking at it was: Why did Paul have 17,000 gold saved up at modern age when there were obvious improvements to buy that would have significantly improved his science?

That is the ONLY question I had and still have regarding the play of that game! Everything else appeared legitimate in our test game

Now, aside from the Paul issue, I'd like to talk about another rush buy issue:

If I am correct, there is to be NO rush buy swapping from improvements to units, right? There is to be NO PW rush tricks, right? Now, what about rush buy ramping up? I learned about this just yesterday. For example, let's say you have a junker city and you want a destroyer in a hurry (using the unit example just for fun). To rush buy this it would cost 8000 in communism. However, if you rush/switch a courthouse, city wall, theatre, academy, marketplace, and collisium... then switch to a destroy, you have the unit for a total of 3043! The same goes for a factory. Rush buy cost would be 8100 from scratch. Follow the same path but then switch to bank, university, city clock and then factory and your cost would be 5334! A nice savings by any standards. In addition, if the city already has some minor production accumulated, the initial cost of a courthouse (1080) is significantly reduced. Furthermore, a few rush buys in the middle of production can save several turns of construction for just a minimal cost!

Are we going to allow this type of ramping up trick in the tourney?

Now, some additional results from the test game with Paul. After having a look at the map where we ended, I continued for another 10 or 30 turns just allowing the turns to go by. I only did this after it became obvious that we were not going to continue playing this test! By the end of that time, 4 disasters had struck. That is without nuclear weapons and without me building oil refineries (but Paul did build these). I have made a change to one of the default files and will be testing it to see if disasters can be avoided while leaving pollution on in the game.

Finally, one last time, I did NOT accuse Paul of cheating. But, for anyone who is worried about someone using the rush buy/rush PW tricks, I suggest both players save a copy of the game each turn and then the losing player can review the game and contest it if he finds something is wrong. It can then be reviewed by the tournament organizers to either confirm or denie the accusation. How can this be done? Paul taught me this one... as the NON-HOST player, all you have to do to get a saved copy of the game is go to options, hit NEW GAME, hit SAVE GAME, hit CANCEL. There you go... you now have a save of the game as the non-host player.

yoda

	29-05-2002 21:27									#228
	Accusations Tired of ads?

One additional comment about this controversy... I have played (but not finished) many games with Paul. In all of those games, I have only noticed a couple of things that I wondered about. I am not going to drag these issues out through the mud because regardless of these, I know that Paul is one of the best CTP players in the world. The suggestion I have made above regarding how to review the games is the simple solution if ANYONE has a problem with how myself or any other person plays.

And Paul, if you would like to see the tourney map we were playing and don't already have a copy using the trick you discovered, let me know and I will send it to you via icq. Once again, I did not make this accusation about the tourney map. I simply was curious just why such a high quality player would keep so much gold on hand...

	29-05-2002 23:14									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Do you really need an answer on the ramping suggestion?

	30-05-2002 00:04									#230
	answer Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Do you really need an answer on the ramping suggestion?

Not really Gav. I just wanted to make sure that everyone involved understood the impact of this loophole as it was a considerable revelation to me.

yoda

	30-05-2002 00:08									#231
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I brought this up in the last thread (though I didn't make it clear - I assumed everyone would know what I was talking about):

quote: So far I think you've excluded rush buy switching, but I'm sure there are others (Incremental rush buying comes to mind - i.e. rush buying repeatedly in the same category rather than switching e.g. from improvements to buildings - I would think that this is much harder to police).

To which Gav replied:

quote: Rush Buying is pretty straight forward.... You may never RUSH BUY then switch category - that is between units, structures and wonders

Which I took to mean that incremental rush buying was OK by him, since it's not switching category - was this a misunderstanding?

Then Solver said:

quote: Here's my take on rushing: if you buy something, you complete whatever you bought. Simple really.

Which is clearly against it. I take it you're all agreed on Solver's interpretation.

	30-05-2002 00:27									#232
	Re: Game Play Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by yoda Now, what about rush buy ramping up? I learned about this just yesterday. Are we going to allow this type of ramping up trick in the tourney? yoda

I think that the "no rush-buy-switch rule" covers the ramp up as well. "Ramp Up - Switch" is just a derivation of the rush-buy-switch.... But it was good that Yoda brought it up now, instead of later, for clarity's sake.

But what is the PW Rush Trick? Does everyone know this trick but me??

Still mixed up a little on Paulno1's post, though. He said the comp2b map was buggy. But in what way? I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic about the 17000 gold or if a bug caused the 17000 gold or whether it was just plain good old gold savings from good old basic trading? more

	30-05-2002 00:29									#233
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

IIRC: The PW rush trick is when you place two tile imps on the same square in the same turn - you only pay the cost of the more expensive of the two, but the improvement is built in just one turn.

	30-05-2002 00:36									#234
	Re: Re: Game Play Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by quinns I think that the "no rush-buy-switch rule" covers the ramp up as well. "Ramp Up - Switch" is just a derivation of the rush-buy-switch.... But it was good that Yoda brought it up now, instead of later, for clarity's sake. But what is the PW Rush Trick? Does everyone know this trick but me?? Still mixed up a little on Paulno1's post, though. He said the comp2b map was buggy. But in what way? I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic about the 17000 gold or if a bug caused the 17000 gold or whether it was just plain good old gold savings from good old basic trading? more

The RUSH PW trick is simple. You build a farm for a cost of 200 and in the same turn, build an advanced farm in the same hex which only costs an additional 300 (total 500). You then get the advanced farm in ONE turn. I believe it was Dragon who first made me aware of this trick a few weeks ago when he posted it here. The same procedure works for mines. I'm not sure about other PW projects such as roads/railroads, airbases, listening posts, etc...

As for a buggy map, so far there have been no bugs that I have noticed while playing for the first sitting. I don't know about what happens after a saved game is continued. I will be testing that today along with the pollution modification file.

yoda

	30-05-2002 00:42									#235
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay. Thanks for that Yoda and JBTW. Right, NO RUSH PW either!

	30-05-2002 00:44									#236
	Suffering from ads?

I'm actually glad in a strange kind of way that the incremental rush buying thing is there because it promted me to post this thread (just about the first thread I ever started) and faded's reply got me hooked on PBEM... I can't believe that's nearly a year ago now. Back in the days when I was a clueless newbie - now I'm beginning to feel like a scarred veteran (though not so scarred as the august competitors here (Try and figure out whether that's a compliment )). But that's enough OT rambling...

	30-05-2002 01:29									#237
	Bugs Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok, just loaded up a saved test of the map and discovered that there were NO bugs in terms of extra gold or tech. I also tested my modified pollution file and determined that you can delay the occurence of disasters while still keeping pollution on. If I am correct, the game went from 9 turns to the next disaster to 35 turns. I am going to modify it further to make it basically impossible for a disaster to occur unless the players go nuke happy.

yoda

	30-05-2002 05:47									#238
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I dont think i ever said in the post that yoda called me a cheat
tried not to even emply it, i tried not to name names, his mate was the one that called me cheat very adimently and no holds barred. I have not even discussed the issue with yoda YET. Though the game seemed very laggy to me , id switch to next unit and it would take 20 seconds. Ive never had this problem before and never since. Even in 4 player games, hence i thought it was very strange (i was not host). We stopped teh game so i could reboot but thtat did not fix the problem.
I never mentioned it to yoda whcih is even stranger i suffered in anoyence alone. About the that ramping thing, i kind a new the idea of that never used it though never thought it was worthwhil. Cause buying any unit or building from the start is not effient. I never spend more than 500 gold on any one thing before commi and and about 1100 in commi.

	30-05-2002 06:50									#239
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Paul - I had exactly the same thing with map - not lag - but when the comp auto circulated to a new unit it could totally hang (as if frozen) for ages ....... couldn't even scroll ...... At one point it was soo bad (early in game) that I had to reboot CTP...... I thought it was old comp here - I don't think so though now.... there is an issue that needs to be addressed.... It got to the point where it was happening several times a turn. One thing - It always seemed to be with same single units... I am concerned that CTP loses track of where units are occassionally - and misplaces them... It does happen then every time you try to move it u get a resync, and unit goes back to where it started... This could end the game prematurely..

Anyone got a suggestion??

Paul will you rejoin comp.... There is a lot of us very upset at the prospect of you not being part of it!

J Bytheway - I never realised incremental Rush buy switching had an impact on cost - I thought costing was directly proportional to prod applied ..... I think the edited answer is that once you rush buy - you complete whatever you are buying. - And J B yes u certainly are developing painful looking welts and bruises! - It would be great to face your analytical brain online in the summer... I have a feeling that you could be one hell of an opponent..... BUT in CTP I am convincd there is a best thing to do, and a right thing to do...

	30-05-2002 07:06									#240
	testing Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Dr. Doom and I have tested the map a couple of times (not to completion) and found that there was a slight lag in moving the non-host player, but no other problems. We will need to play it out to big battles to make sure there are no significant problems. Also, the game has never lost track of units to the best of my knowledge/play testing.

As for the rush buy ramp-up, the incremental drops in cost per production is parabolic.

yoda