26-05-2002 07:50									#181
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As an alternative, I know the attached files work (through at least Renaissance -- e.g. Ag Rev) without doing any of the above adjustments to your advances.txt file. Just place the two files in your scen000x (e.g. scen0001) folder as is, and start up CTP. It is the comp3 map/scenario with corrections to goods around lake islands, no extra river, and 1 settler.

Attachment: comp3b.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by quinns on 26-05-2002 at 07:57

	26-05-2002 08:21									#182
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Sorry Quinns, it doesn't work. Ran into the same tech wall. Did you test this in a MP game?

	26-05-2002 08:59									#183
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Man, discussions, discussions, and more discussions..... I suppose it is for the best, but I leave in one week!!! Oh well, I guess I will have to play my first league game when I get back.

About the pollution problems.... Is pollution tied directly to the amount of production you have, large population, or large population made worse by factories and the like? We should leave in disasters though, as an ace in the hole.(or should I say joker?)

	26-05-2002 09:36									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Swissy Sorry Quinns, it doesn't work. Ran into the same tech wall. Did you test this in a MP game?

No, I just tested it in Hot Seat. It worked fine there -- no tech wall. Did you test in in hot seat or internet MP?

	26-05-2002 10:01									#185
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quote: Originally posted by quinns No, I just tested it in Hot Seat. It worked fine there -- no tech wall. Did you test in in hot seat or internet MP?

I tested it in an internet game.

	26-05-2002 15:03									#186
	Play Testing Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, Paul and I have tested the map up to 1190ad so far (still playing). We are closing in on nukes, science is somewhere around 5000 in communism and we finally met just 10 turns ago (approximately).

Tech problem is solved using the advance.txt file. However, as I mentioned before, this map is a good one but perhaps most players will find it difficult. It heavily favours an expansion strategy. Pollution on is still, in my opinion, a big, BIG mistake.

Personally, I favour a map similar to the one I designed. Jbytheway's map is excellent, but it almost completely removes any attempt at a naval game. Because tech moves so quickly, only hit and run tactics will most likely be successful against anyone who has any kind of mobile defense. Exception is with nukes of course. Keep nukes in the game without any modifying rules and he who nukes first/hardest wins. Because there is so much land and it's so close in areas, air power will probably totally rule without even requiring aircraft carriers.

One more thing: even with trying to play as fast as possible, turns will become very, very long from this point on (probably 40 minutes). I hope everyone is prepared for such a long game.

	26-05-2002 18:49									#187
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Good report Yoda. What you have posted is exactly what I expected. When I first looked at the map I figured naval units are useless until destroyers, you will not be able to even make effective raids into emeny territory until tanks (even then the mountain ranges hamper tank raids), and the games will not be resolved until space planes. My question is why you even bothered to make contact. Hide behind a line of listening posts/sonar bouys and go pedal to the metal in science to get to space planes, and victory. Once you get to nukes nobody can touch you except through space.

Perhaps a smaller map may be in order. I would like to see one that supports a game that will take around 6-8 hours to complete, not 6-8 hours to get to contact.

	26-05-2002 20:01									#188
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Did I really create such a monster?..

	26-05-2002 20:02									#189
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Glad to see the internet play is working with the advances.txt modification. I understand now... thanks Swissy -- i.e. old comp2 works fine in hot-seat and single-player but does not work in internet play without the advances.txt modification. ( I think somebody mentioned that already... I should read better!)

In any case, I tend to favor Yoda's and Swissy's conclusion about a "smaller map". Gavrushka and I played on the Comp2b map until about 1000 b.c. before concluding that the tech- wall was definitely there. But even then turns were already slowing down with many cities. Why not a "small" map? I know many players believe this favors the non-expansionist... but does it really? You just have do expand with a more militaristic posture. When you run out of room, you can expand into space -- if it goes that far. But, yes, much quicker games. 40 minutes per turn would be unreasonable -- games between equal players may take an eternity to complete. You were right.

I now vote for using a regular or small, earth-shaped map with "three-fourths" water, and "medium to low" goods settings. J's map can definitely still be used by all of us... just not in league play. What do you all think about that?

	26-05-2002 21:27									#190
	new map Got spare money?

A smaller map is NOT the answer. On a regular size map, chances are very high that it will simply become a SOL slug fest. I've seen it too many times. There becomes no possibility of getting past early modern age. No, the length of time to play is not the question. After all, this is a world championship tournament. Time is not really the issue.

My vote is to go with jbytheway's map for the first round of games and then perhaps come up with a tougher map for the next round of games. That way we can start on a very playable map (long and very lush for production/science) and have time (months?) to come up with a new map for round two.

However, I vote for no pollution, no piracy. Nukes are optional.

For a new map, I suggest something similar to what I created. People need to be far enough apart so that the science option still exists. Small enough amount of land for a home world that they can't just sit on their home rock and watch the world go by. Islands in the middle that will have to be fought over to win key goods and military positioning. And goods scarce enough (but still enough if you know what I mean) that the only way to really get the trade/science going is to have those key goods.

	26-05-2002 21:40									#191
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What's a round? Are you planning multiple games between each pair of players?

	26-05-2002 21:49									#192
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway What's a round? Are you planning multiple games between each pair of players?

I'm not sure just how this was to be organized, but I thought the idea was to play home and away against each person. Perhaps a good test would be to play everyone once on this map and once on a different map. Then compile the results and play on a third map for ties/finals. However, that's up to solver and gavrushka.

	26-05-2002 21:56									#193
	Game length Got spare money?

I suspect the game will take 8 to 12 hours to complete and longer if the players are evenly matched. If the players are slow, add 50% or more to that time. The comment I made early about 40 minute turns is only because there was about to be conflict. I had just invaded Paul (small hit and run force), but whenever the military is involved, turns take much longer.

I want to point this out one more time. For nukes, I suspect a rule will have to be made to either not allow them to be used to attack a city or just get rid of them altogether.

	26-05-2002 22:55									#194
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Hey, gigantic map that takes forever, so that you can build an empire in peace until early modern, then slug it out into late modern, genetic............. sounds like my kind of game. I am all for it.

	26-05-2002 23:50									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Patryn Hey, gigantic map that takes forever, so that you can build an empire in peace until early modern, then slug it out into late modern, genetic............. sounds like my kind of game. I am all for it.

Actually, this map lends itself to a strategy of pushing to space planes. First one there wins. Building for sea invasion is a waste. The production is better spent on building a vision line to guard against your opponent. Then jump on anything that gets close, I expect subs will be key defenders. Once you get space planes your opponent will be defenseless, or they will be bogged down in guarding the homefront.

As far as limits on nukes. I am getting tired of every single gripe being tied to an aspect of the game that does not benefit the production kings. No pirating so you have an easy tech push to Industrial Rev, no pollution so you can keep your cities at 1000 production plus without adverse effects, and no nukes use on cities so your opponent can't come down from space and wipe out your production core in one turn (It can be done, I did it in Monkey1 pbem game). If you want a real test; 1 settler, 100 gold, no wonders, everything else ON. The game as it is now is a plain old production fest, neglecting many of the other aspects of the game.

	26-05-2002 23:56									#196
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Has anyone ever actually had a war in space with Phantoms, etc.? Ever actually conquered a space city? Just curious...

As for limits on nukes, perhaps you shouldn't exclude the nanite defuser...

	27-05-2002 00:13									#197
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Has anyone ever actually had a war in space with Phantoms, etc.? Ever actually conquered a space city? Just curious... As for limits on nukes, perhaps you shouldn't exclude the nanite defuser...

In the US pbem game I think there were a few space cities taken. But these were taken from barbarians as Don's civ went into total revolt. I have not seen a non-diamond start that used Phantoms.

As for the Nanite Difuser, if player correctly the games would be over before the Difuser came online. With nukes, marines, tanks, space fighters/planes I see a rather quick resolution in early genetic. To many attack possibilities, not enough defenders once space opens up. That is why I have been saying the first to space planes should win. It is alot like first to SOL on a regular island map. The other player is just caught in catch-up mode. But since the modern weapons are much deadlier, I see little chance of catching up.

	27-05-2002 10:40									#198
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Has anyone ever actually had a war in space with Phantoms, etc.? Ever actually conquered a space city? Just curious... As for limits on nukes, perhaps you shouldn't exclude the nanite defuser...

Dr. Doom and I have played from ancient into late diamond age. We battled with star cruisers and phantoms, etc... Doom had about 20 space cities at that point to my 12. However, it was only because we were relatively passive in the earlier ages.

	27-05-2002 11:16									#199
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Just played another test game today on the comp2 map with Dr. Doom. 1265AD, just getting to space flight. Neither of us built many (if any) oil refineries. We both built recycling plants and we were still NINE (that's 9) turns away from a disaster. Disasters have to be turned off somehow. Either by a default setting or by turning off pollution. Otherwise, the exercise is pointless when two fairly evenly matched people play.

We had lots of combat. In total, I think 8 cities were taken. Having a navy is basically a waste of time unless you can somehow get WAY ahead of the other person in tech. No nukes were used. As for the argument that there should be no restrictions on nukes, I'll play you a game sometime and show you just WHY nukes should be excluded. Two or three nukes used against the same city will totally wipe it out no matter how big it is. Now, take out the top 3 or 4 science cities of your opponent... GAME OVER! Wasn't that fun and a good test of skill. No need to mention the nuke/paratrooper attack... LOL

As for the race for space planes/fighters and he who gets there first wins, there are defenses against that type of attack. However, if you are that far behind in tech, it's game over anyways!

	27-05-2002 13:00									#200
	Re: Play Testing Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by yoda As for the argument that there should be no restrictions on nukes, I'll play you a game sometime and show you just WHY nukes should be excluded. Two or three nukes used against the same city will totally wipe it out no matter how big it is. Now, take out the top 3 or 4 science cities of your opponent... GAME OVER! Wasn't that fun and a good test of skill. No need to mention the nuke/paratrooper attack... LOL

If you allow an opponent to get close enough to uses nukes on your big science cities, you deserve to lose. Forward defense is the name of the game here. The player who can strike at his opponents science/production while keeping his own secure SHOULD win. As I said before, this is just the same game we always play, just taking 6-8 hours longer to complete. Instead of stacks of tanks/marines on a reg land map, or SOL /muskets on a reg island map; we will be using interceptors/paratroopers or spacecraft/nukes/marines (for the most evenly matched players).

Reports I am getting lead me to think these games are going to take longer than we originaly thought. I have heard that test games have upward of 60+ cities a side, turns after contact of 20-30 mins a side, and higher turn times as combat is initiated even on a limited scale. Considering the difficulties of time zone differences and real life, we may be better served with a game that would take 4-6 hours to complete, not just to get to initial contact. Or else we may be well into 2003 before we see the final match started.

	27-05-2002 17:18									#201
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After reading this all, BOY you guys are doing some WORK! Thanks to Quinns, JB, Gav and the others involved, hope we can finally succeed with the map and start soon!

	27-05-2002 17:40									#202
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It will be worth it Solver.... The maps are there for all eternity once fixed....no more restarting for bad land....

	27-05-2002 20:37									#203
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I say go for it with this map. Even for all players. If, after the first few games, there are too many problems, introduce a new map for the next few games.

However, we still need to decide on some rules. Is there a decision yet? Nukes/no nukes? Pollution/no pollution? Piracy/no piracy? Wonders/no wonders? I am assuming we have decided on 1 settler and 100 gold... If you want the players to vote, here is mine:
no nukes; no pollution; no piracy; no wonders (except for nanite defuser and wormhole sensor). Oh yes, and no rush buy switching and public work tricks. (personally, I don't mind using these tricks, but I don't want to start a big discussion on them )

If the tournament goes to 2004, so be it! Perhaps someone will develop another good strategy game by then.

	27-05-2002 22:51									#204
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Nukes YES (If you can't defend against it you should lose)
Piracy YES (If your getting pirated, your probably lost anyways)
Pillage YES (Ditto)
Pollution YES (Wish there was an easy way to turn off disasters but leave in the black sqaures for very high polluting cities)
Wonders NO (Except Wormhole Sensor and Nanite Defuser)

Let me throw this out for a format:

5 round Swiss System (6 rounds if more than 32 players, 4 rounds with 16 or less)
One month time limit per round, you delay the game you are out.
Win = 1pt, Draw = 1/2 pt, Loss = 0 pt.
If you cannot come to a resolution by the end of the month, and neither player is delaying, the game is declared a draw.

For those not familar with the Swiss System:

First round: Rank players in a relative strength list. I reccommend that after the final entry list is made, each player make an honest ranking. Solver will compile a consensus ranking. Top plays bottom and so on with the middle players meeting.

Second round and after: You play a player with the same point total as you. The only restriction is you may not play a player twice in the tourney.

Idealy the winner will have a perfect score, but one loss may not necessarily knock you out. And everyone gets to play at least a couple games that are competitive. If a tie for first exists at the end of the final round, you can either split the pot or have a winner take all playoff.

	27-05-2002 23:03									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Swissy Nukes YES (If you can't defend against it you should lose) Piracy YES (If your getting pirated, your probably lost anyways) Pillage YES (Ditto) Pollution YES (Wish there was an easy way to turn off disasters but leave in the black sqaures for very high polluting cities) Wonders NO (Except Wormhole Sensor and Nanite Defuser)

Pollution: I do believe we can turn off disasters using a default file. We can simply set the pollution levels so high that we'll never reach them.

Pillaging. Yes, I agree
Piracy. Sure, as long as I'm host. Too many bugs in the game for the non-host player.
Nukes... Swissy, interested in playing a game?

	27-05-2002 23:18									#206
	Inflate your Upload Space

Guys how about having referee in each game?
Referee would be a host of three player game. He would be placed in one tile rock in the middle of the ocean and just monitor the game.

	28-05-2002 00:48									#207
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My votes:
Nukes: Yes ( I hate them, but they should be on... it's part of CTP)
Piracy: No (internet games too buggy with piracy on)
Pillaging: Yes
Pollution: On (with disaster level on high as Yoda suggests)

	28-05-2002 01:20									#208
	Got spare money?

Kralj -Would not be practical unfortunatelty no matter how desirable- firstly there will be over 100 games- the time zone restrictions would be compounded by negotiating with third player -Pity - but would never work.

Piracy has to be off because of bugs.

Pollution does not cause bugs, neither does pillaging so I see no reason to exclude them.

Wonders I think we agreed to leave ALien Life Victory in.

Comp scoring - everyone plays everyone - no other system can be considered.

I think Swissy if U played Yoda you would understand why you cannot play with Nukes.... I am aware of his strategy - you would be scratching your head considering blueprints for Sols when the Nukes came raining down - So Nukes must be excluded- Otherwise I might as well say stuff the comp and send money to Yoda.

Someone tell me where I should shove the advances file to make map work - which is the 'default directory' that was mentioned?

	28-05-2002 01:23									#209
	Remove this text

As to the referee - I don't think it's a good idea (would slow the league down because you'd have to organise a time when three people are free, not just two) but has anyone tried playing as the scots? They have no units but are not dead... Could be interesting - I believe there's a cheat accessible through the chat box that reveals the map but I don't know whether this does so for all players or just the one.

	28-05-2002 01:32									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Someone tell me where I should shove the advances file to make map work - which is the 'default directory' that was mentioned?

...\scenarios\comp2\default\gamedata\