23-05-2002 23:23									#151
	Re: Quinns Map Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by yoda I think we should vote on the "extra river" for the comp2 map. Personally, I don't mind if is not added as the game becomes significantly easier with the extra river. Also, Quinns map (comp3) has some errors in it. Blue has an extra 3 hex river with a forest hex and the beach is not quite right. If we do end up using this map with the extra river, could JBYTHEWAY make the adjustments as the "official map creator"? yoda

Oops! Yes, J-Bytheway, you do it. I was too careless. In fact, we can leave the comp2 map/scenario exactly as is, with one settler, no extra river. After Yoda's test, I think that would probably work out fine for everyone...
Over 30 cities by 1300 B.C. and Democracy without using the rush-buy-switch!! Wow! Yoda has shown me that I MUST practice very much before playing him! I got 40 cities with the same map by 400 B.C., BUT THAT WAS 900 YEARS LATER. I think I had about 30 cities by 1000 B.C.

	23-05-2002 23:23									#152
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thats pretty valuable playtesting Yoda- Me and quinns will try one v one on map Saturday - See how that goes...

Quinns! - I will have 11 cities and be proud of them all as if they were my children!

	24-05-2002 06:38									#153
	Play Testing Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I took the game out to 0AD (80 turns) just to see where I would be. I know I made a few mistakes but, for the record... (jbytheway's map with quinns river and 3 settlers 100 gold and no rush buy switching)
55 cities, 4 settlers, 1500+ science, working on railroad, gov = communism, only 12 trade routes. In democracy, my science would have been about 2500.

	24-05-2002 08:02									#154
	Remove this text

Democracy Yoda?

	24-05-2002 13:19									#155
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm... The extra river and settlers only really speed this about 20 turns, so there will likely be a problem on the original map too. Do you think that removing goods will improve the situation enough, or will it require more drastic measures?

	24-05-2002 17:19									#156
	Inflate your Upload Space

Personally, I think we should just go with J-Bytheway's COMP2 map and scenario. J is right in that the extra settlers and river only speed things up by about 20 turns. My vote is to use the COMP2 map the way it is ---- AND LET'S LIGHT THIS CANDLE! What are the pairings of the first round Gavrushka?!

I really don't think the space race will be the only option here. A well timed early massive Samurai via Trireme assault may put a wrinkle in the "pure infrastructure" Space Racer's plans... Who really knows until we try it? Gavrushka and I will test this COMP2 (one settler, 100 gold, no extra river) one-on-one tomorrow. We'll let you all know how it goes.

	24-05-2002 17:26									#157
	Put an end to popups!

I await the results very eagerly .

	24-05-2002 17:40									#158
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah... I guess if you see the game as OK, we should start.

	24-05-2002 19:04									#159
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

J-Bytheway -- First, again, thanks for all the work on the map. The more I see it the more depth it unveils.

I believe there is an error on the COMP2 map that may prove to be quite significant during play, however. Look at the southern large lake with the single tile island in the center. It is surrounded by four PEARL goods. I believe you meant for this large lake island to be surrounded by CRAB goods to match the southern small lake island that is surrounded by CRAB. The northern lake islands are surrounded by all PEARLS, so in conformance with your altering the type of good, I would have thought the southern lake islands would be surrounded by all CRABS. I think that these islands will be huge trade centers, but the dissymmetry will cause the north to be in a better monopoly position. You will see what I mean if you look at the large and small lakes for both northern and southern positions.

Last edited by quinns on 24-05-2002 at 19:10

	24-05-2002 19:35									#160
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Whoops... I knew it was too good to hope that I'd made no mistakes. I should be able to fix that sometime today.

	24-05-2002 20:26									#161
	print screen Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Does anyone know how to print off the map? It would be nice to have a hard copy before the tournament games start. Also, if JBytheway has to fix the map anyway, I suggest taking out the quadruple goods and making them triples. That would probably slow things down enough without having to seriously re-engineer the map.

	24-05-2002 20:30									#162
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Attached is an updated version, fixing the bug noted by quinns and also another scenario which is the same thing with some goods removed. There are now no quadruples and fewer triples. Both tested on hotseat for a few turns.

Attachment: comp2.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	24-05-2002 20:57									#163
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I dunno how to print the map - which makes it a problem for the player who has a poor memory..... Anyone know??

J B- me and Quinns will be play testing tomorrow at 3:00pm London Time - We will, I am sure, send some saves

	24-05-2002 21:06									#164
	Increase Your PM Length

There's a bmp2ctp converter lying around somewhere, isn't there? That might be able to convert the map to a bitmap image. Or am I thinking of Civ2?

	25-05-2002 01:32									#165
	Play Test Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Attached is an updated version, fixing the bug noted by quinns and also another scenario which is the same thing with some goods removed. There are now no quadruples and fewer triples. Both tested on hotseat for a few turns.

I have tested the new map. I think it will work just fine. Congratulations to jbytheway! Removing the river and the extra goods slows things down and even in modern age, science moves fast but not too fast (depending on how a person plays it of course).

One more BIG problem I see. Pollution! With all that lush production ground, any game that goes to nukes (and most should go there at least), I suspect we will have major pollution problems. Floods, wasted land, etc... Is this really what we want to see for the "end game" of the tournament games? I strongly suggest turning pollution off. I played out to 1250ad and found that even with basically a single player (second player had 2 cities...), pollution disaster was only a matter of 70 turns away (I was building recycling plants). I was just getting to nukes at that point. Double the pollution for two players and you are going to have a disaster in Modern Age.

I don't know if any of you have played out games into disasters, I have. The flood isn't too bad, but the radiation problems (every few turns) basically turns 70% of the land black. And, it isn't evenly distributed. In other words, one person can get unlucky and get knocked off the growth curve simply because of luck, not skill.

yoda

	25-05-2002 01:44									#166
	Got spare money?

I thought everyone wanted a test under the toughest settings. That is why there was such a demand for 1 settler and 100 gold. If you want a real test, leave pollution on. The contest is to see who the best player is, not who can generate the most production. If you have no pirating and no pollution these games will turn into production fests.

	25-05-2002 03:05									#167
	Pollution Problem Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Swissy I thought everyone wanted a test under the toughest settings. That is why there was such a demand for 1 settler and 100 gold. If you want a real test, leave pollution on. The contest is to see who the best player is, not who can generate the most production. If you have no pirating and no pollution these games will turn into production fests.

Problem is, if one player were to control his pollution problem, but the other doesn't... BOTH get nuked by the disasters. The effects hit the planet, not the player. Therefore, it ends up being whoever can produce the most before their ground gets destroyed. So, either way it's a production fest. I don't mind playing with pollution on, but the point I'm trying to make is what type of end game do we want to have? Players struggling to survive on a black rock or players using their skills to win either by the space race or by military conquest? If we could somehow eliminate the disasters but leave pollution in play, that would be the best possible result. Anyone who suggests that you can play through a series of disasters obviously hasn't played with them yet!

yoda

	25-05-2002 11:21									#168
	Tech Problem Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, someone PLEASE tell me that they have tested the map in MP and it works. I just tried it with Paul and ran into a wall. Tech would not advance past ancient age. In other words, no Ren. age tech would come up for selection and eventually you run out of tech to learn.

I sure hope this can be fixed...

yoda

	25-05-2002 17:19									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Looks bad

Ran into same tech wall that Yoda did. Seems that the game belives the tech setings are ancient max. I do not know how to get past this. If there is no solution to this problem we are dead in the water.

Here is the save if you want to look. I was just cranking out settlers and burning turns to see if Yoda was right.

Attachment: comp2b test.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	25-05-2002 17:19									#170
	Inflate your Upload Space

We will be playing (me and quinns ) in 2 hours - come to the lobby and we will drop out at 4:00 with update (london time)

	25-05-2002 17:59									#171
	Tired of ads?

The simple solution is to modify advance.txt so that every advance is an ancient one. (You can tell I'm a modder, I always come up with solutions like this ).

I presume that this problem only occurs in internet games since Yoda's hotseat test got to the modern age.

	25-05-2002 18:06									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I suggest we wait until me and Quinns test it?

We will break and post as game develops.

	25-05-2002 19:28									#173
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

JB's work-around works

You must put a copy of the default and the language file (English, Spanish, German), and place it into the competition scenario folder. Here is the modified Advance.txt file. Place it into the default folder. I played two cities until 2000AD and had made genetic.

Attachment: advance.txt
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	25-05-2002 20:23									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You make it sound like you put a copy of all of the englsh and default folders in the scenario directory. Is that the case? It should be sufficient to have just the modified version of advance.txt in scenarios\Comp2\default\gamedata\ - you shouldn't need copies of unchanged files.

	25-05-2002 21:24									#175
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I just set it up like the Apolyton Pack that I already had in the scenario folder. Try it the other way, this way I know works.

	25-05-2002 22:06									#176
	modification option Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If the advance.txt works, great. But I was just wondering... If the game has a setting for tech level (ie: ancient to diamond), isn't there a modification file that we can use to force the scenario to accept those ages for tech? It sure would be nice if we could get the "warnings" that someone has enterred a new age. It's one of the best ways to compare before the people meet.

yoda

	25-05-2002 22:47									#177
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have never come across anything which could exclude ages, and I have no idea what could have caused the bug you were observing. It didn't happen in your hotseat game, presumably, so it must be linked to internet games. It's very wierd...

If you want the messages I could probably write some SLIC to simulate them. Shouldn't be too hard.

	25-05-2002 23:14									#178
	Support Apolyton

The messages come across fine. The age messages are tied to the completion of certain advances or combination of advances. I received the ren, modern and genetic message icons when I completed the right advances.

	26-05-2002 01:35									#179
	Pollution Inflate your Upload Space

I just looked at the default modification files. They have one for pollution. I suspect we could simply make the disaster settings ridiculously high so that we can play with pollution without having to have disasters. This might be the best solution for this problem if it works.

	26-05-2002 01:53									#180
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Swissy: Of course - *slaps forehead* - I forgot the messages were tied to advances as listed in age.txt, not the ages in advance.txt. Thanks for reminding me.

Yoda: That would work, but... I don't know. I always thought of pollution as the last weapon of the losing nation - "stop attacks now or I destroy the world!" (evil laughter).