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Dr. Doom1
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To my CTP friends:
I'm sorry to be the one to have to do this, but with the CTP tournament coming up, its time everyone learned how Paul plays CTP. I am the one who accused Paul of cheating, and I stand by that accusation.
Paul appears to be a good CTP player because he uses a clever series of multiple ramp-up swaps in his city building queues to build his city infrastructure, and even some of his military units, quickly and cheaply. And I can prove that he does, because I have copies of saved games where there is evidence of these ramp-up sequences left in his building queues. And I will send these copies to anyone who is interested in seeing the evidence for themselves. While a ramp-up swap may not in itself be cheating, it certainly is when the pre-established game rules prohibit it.
By now most good CTP players are aware that there are a number of simple rush-buy swaps, such as the granary/settler swap, that can be used to speed up empire growth. The temple/pikeman switch is another well-known swap, that can be used to create instant defense in a new city. And the marketplace/caravan swap can be used to speed up economic growth.
All of these swaps take advantage of two loopholes in the CTP program: 1) Buildings are much cheaper to produce than units. 2) The cost of production per turn drops parabolically--not linearly--over time. The parabolic curve, and the corresponding cost decrease over time, is always the same for all production. So, for every cost vs. time production graph, there is an optimum point where the most number of production turns can be rush-bought for the least amount of gold. Paul is a good accountant, and he knows these things.
However, unlike most CTP players Paul also knows that the basic rush-buy swap trick can be compounded into a series of same-turn swaps in order to create large city infrastructure and military units in an incredibly short period of time. First I'll explain how this can be done, and then I'll prove--to anyone who's interested--that Paul not only uses this trick, but is willing to do so even when the pre-established game rules prohibit it.
All of this cannot be laid out n a few words however, so you'll have to bear with me. I'll post more information in follow-up messages.
Dr. Doom
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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:13
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1 short thing to say
i think doom was getting confused by what i had on my build queues. Anyone ever pressed F1 and made queues, so you can make a queue of what you want and load it too how ever many cities you want, so you can make all cities build the same thing or a list of the same thing. I have a queue for granery and aquaducts, gran aqua mills and temples, then one with the same things and factories and courthouses and it goes on. I dont allways use these but i use them a lot of the time. It makes it EASIER,it gets anoying if you are builing a bank in a trade city, when you load the queue and it gets changed to an aquaduct.
Hence when some one attacks and you want to change the queues it gets quite anoying, in the 4 player i could not change anything just add infrount, because if you delete something on the queue in a 4 player the 2 other non hosts resync and boy they didnt like that lol.
But due to this my queues can get quite jumbled, easily fixed i guess by just making another queue and over riding everything.
Non of this gives any advantage just makes it easyer and much faster. Do you like going into every city once tehy finish what they are buidling ? I DONT. This seems obvious and many of you will think im retarted just by mentioning it, but some people are much dumber than you think lol
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Dr. Doom1
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To my CTP friends:
In my first message I discussed Paul's ramp-up swap procedure for creating large city infrastructure and military units in CTP games. Now I want to be more specific about how the ramp-up swap is done.
Yoda referred to the swap procedure a few days ago in a message he posted (05/29). In that message he mentioned that he had heard about the ramp-up swap "just yesterday." He is correct about that--because he heard about it from me. and I discovered it after examining some of Paul's city build queues in copies of old saved games.
More about this in a follow-up message.
Dr. Doom
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Dr. Doom1
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To my CTP friends:
The ramp-up swap works like this: Suppose you want to build a large unit, like a destroyer, quickly. If you look at the CTP game chart, you will see that the cheapest entry point into the build-up ramp sequence is the temple or the courthouse, both having an equal production cost. But of course it is necessary to build temples in your cities fairly early, in order to control city riots. This then leaves the courthouse as the only real option as a cheap entry point into the build sequence.
Now suppose you take even a small city with a couple of turns of production. On one turn you switch to a courthouse (production cost: 270) and rush-buy it for a few hundred gold. Then ON THE SAME TURN you immediately switch to a city-wall (production cost: 405) and rush-buy it for about 350 more gold (eg. under communism). Then switch to a publishing house (production cost: 540), then to a marketplace (production cost: 675), and finally to a colosseum (production cost: 1,035). (You may want to build the colosseum in your queue for one turn in order to dramatically reduce the finishing cost.) If you look again at the CTP game chart you will see that you have now stepped up, for minimal cost, to the production equivalent of a destroyer (production cost: 1,000)--at a devastatingly quick pace.
The same kind of sequence can be used for quickly constructing factories and mills. In the case of a factory for example (production cost: 2,025), you would ramp up to the city clock (production cost: 1,620) before finally switching to the factory.
Isn't that right Paul?
Dr. Doom
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Dr. Doom1
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One more thing Gavrushka, before I continue. The point here is that the upcoming CTP tourney currently has a no rush-swapping rule. If that rule is changed then there is not as much to be concerned about.
Nevertheless, I want everyone to understand how this--and other CTP tricks--work.
Paul has denied using the kind of rush-swapping I am referring to. And I'm telling you he uses it, and I can prove it.
You say Paul has never used it against you? You mean you've actually gone in to old saved games and checked every city on every turn? Or maybe you are just taking his word for this.
I've played against Paul plenty Gavrushka. And I dare say I'm also a better CTP player than you. (sorry)
Dr. Doom
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quinns
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Gavrushka is right about players agreeing to use the rush-buy-switch trick/cheat BEFORE the game begins. However, we have already said many, many times that the rush-buy-switch (or any "ramp up" derivation thereof) is illegal within Apolyton CTP League play. The use of this trick in "testing" of the Apolyton CTP League map and scenario, to me, constitutes a willingness to use this prohibited technique during competition. If Dr. Doom can prove that Paulno1 used this technique AFTER agreeing not to use it, or that Paulno1 used this technique during the testing of the COMP2B scenario, then I believe there is a case against Paulno1. If Dr.Doom1 cannot prove this, then I agree with Gavrushka about the relevance of this accusation. If Dr. Doom1 can prove either of the above cases, then we should look at the evidence.
Quinns
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Dr. Doom1
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To my CTP friends:
I'm sorry Gavrushka, but you are the one who appears to be missing the point. Judging from the responses posted so far, I'd say Quinns and Blackice are the voices of reason in this discussion--not you.
As you may recall, in my first message I agreed that clever ramp-up switching strategies are not necessarily cheating, if the pre-established game rules don't prohibit them.
However, it is a sad fact of life that not everyone is willing to abide by the rules. And unfortunately there are some very clever tricks available to CTP players, which if used in the upcoming tournament would most certainly be cheating. MANY PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF HOW THESE TRICKS/CHEATS ARE USED, AND THEREFORE ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO SPOT THEIR USE IN THE TOURNAMENT.
Unless of course someone brings them to light ahead of time, and opens people's eyes to their existence. Get your eyes open Gavrushka.
Dr. Doom
P.S. The discussion may be over for you, but obviously it isn't for others. I'm going to continue to post until the issue is resolved. Unfortunately however the subject is complex, so you'll just have to bear with me.
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:13
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Yoda,
I decicde the official rules.
quote:
- no wonders (except nanite defuser and wormhole sensor) |
Yes
quote:
- 100 gold, 1 settler |
The opinion seemed to go for it... yes
We have the map, and here I also need Gav's agreement
quote:
- Pollution on but with modifications |
No... I mean no modifications
Yes
quote:
- standard starting 3 tech |
Yes
Yes
Again yes
Nukes are allowed.
quote:
- no rush buy tricks of any kind
- no rush PW tricks |
Right... both are cheating, so none.
quote:
- saved games by both players on every turn with review by the losing player with contested games being sent to the judges. |
I think good moderation rules, strict enough.
Keygen - this is an Online Tournament to determine the best CtP player under the hardest conditions, this is why we also decided for 1 Settler, 100 gold, 0 PW start.
Now when Gav tells me that the map is OK, we can start. As for the player list, I'm not competent to determine who's in and out... we have a list of all who wish to enter, and I don't know the people well enough, so I don't feel like I have the right to say someone out.
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30-05-2002 08:48
I haven't followed this thread and since it's quite large to read it all I just wanted to ask if it's a Tournament for Online or PBEM or both games or not even a Tournament.
Attachment: 
I remember that map.... Quinns lost 20 cities or so in a turn??, Even the guys in my space cities had wet feet! 
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