12-06-2002 09:46									#121
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"No matter how long they teach their kids ukraininan, they speak/act/are russian."

My reference books put the ratio as ~73% Ukrainian, ~22% Russian. That would seem to be at odds with your assertion. Further, the percentage of Ukrainians is higher in the countryside versus the city, which could skew your perceptions.

Last edited by DanS on 12-06-2002 at 09:55

	12-06-2002 09:47									#122
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And there's something else: I know at least one Ukrainian who did nothing like that but moved to Israel instead, although he'll stone me for calling him an Ukrainian

	12-06-2002 18:17									#123
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Double post. Sorry.

	12-06-2002 18:18									#124
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That's sweet.

	12-06-2002 18:39									#125
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Ecthlion : Eli?

DanS: what morb says it true. most people in the Ukraine don't even know Ukrainian. IIRC. their ties with Russia are very strong. During the soviet era, at least one of the leaders was a "ukrainian" , Khrushchev(sp?).

	12-06-2002 19:08									#126
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"their ties with Russia are very strong."

I don't doubt that, Dal. But the formation of a "Greater Russia" is unlikely, considering that an overwhelming majority of Ukrainians identify themselves as having Ukrainian ethnicity, not Russian.

Further, I don't doubt that Morb talks with few people who identify themselves as Ukrainian, considering that there is a much higher percentage of Ukrainians in the countryside. However, I'm suggesting that his experience is skewed.

If he could tell us how much time he spent in the countryside v. Kiev, that would be helpful.

	12-06-2002 19:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "their ties with Russia are very strong." I don't doubt that, Dal. But the formation of a "Greater Russia" is unlikely, considering that an overwhelming majority of Ukrainians identify themselves as having Ukrainian ethnicity, not Russian. Further, I don't doubt that Morb talks with few people who identify themselves as Ukrainian, considering that there is a much higher percentage of Ukrainians in the countryside. However, I'm suggesting that his experience is skewed. If he could tell us how much time he spent in the countryside v. Kiev, that would be helpful.

first of all, there are just as many of these "75% ukraininans" in RUSSIA with names like Dobrenko or kravchuk who've been russian for so long all they have left that's Ukrainina is their last name. Can you imagine? The two "countries" have been one unified country long before the annexation of others and before the SU was even a possibility. 350(?) years of mutual coexistance. but more than that, we have been ONE country ONE people for so long, its even rediculous to call us any different. You can't tell us apart.

as far as "people from country side," I have many freinds here from the former republics, one girl is from a town near dnepropetrovsk. her last name also ends in an "o" but she doesn't tell you she's ukrainian, because she doesn't even speak the language. she's russian more than even I since I also have a jewish dose in me. one of my better friends is from "the ukrainian country side." his story is similar to this girl's.

the only "ukrainins" who speak of independence are those who are drunk on power or those in the far west of ukraine who are typically polish ukrainians from the terretories taken back from poland. hey, if they want to move to poland, i won't mind. poland can have them. the rest are russian.

also, it's a bit insulting for you to say that you might know more than me about these things because you've looked up CIA world factbook, i've looked at those numbers too. the difference is i have the real world culture and have experiance that you lack.

	12-06-2002 20:03									#128
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DanS: the only possible exeptions are the westernmost provinces. But even that is doubtful.

Many of my "ukrainian" friends , that lived there , barely speak a word of two of ukrainian, and definetly feel like "Russians".

any divide would be fake and unnatural. really.

	13-06-2002 03:15									#129
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" also, it's a bit insulting for you to say that you might know more than me about these things because you've looked up CIA world factbook, i've looked at those numbers too."

Oh, grow some skin, dude. It's not the first time that anecdotal evidence would bring about an incorrect conclusion. I was going by the following report based on '95 self-identification surveys...

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/ebspr98a.html

	13-06-2002 03:20									#130
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That doesn't say much, really. It's like people identifying themselves as Texans. Russia would have the Ukraine as an equal partner in any confederation, not a minion. It was an equal partner during Soviet times as well, and as I pointed out , one of the soviet leaders was Ukrainian. It doesn't really matter . They share the same culture, the same past times. Separation is unnatural. You'll see.

	13-06-2002 03:36									#131
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"It doesn't really matter . They share the same culture, the same past times. Separation is unnatural. You'll see."

Well, you say that. But the self identification surveys show a trend toward a Ukrainian identity and culture, some of which is government enforced and some of which is due to demographic changes.

The Texas analogy isn't perfect. There has never been a language difference between Texas and the rest of the U.S., for instance.

	13-06-2002 03:40									#132
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there is no language difference between Ukraine and Russia as well. Most people speak Russian as their mother tongue. plus, what about all the mexicans in texas ?

	13-06-2002 03:43									#133
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When they overrun Texas, then it will be a better analogy, but no sooner.

	13-06-2002 03:44									#134
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Isn't Israel basically the Middle East's Texas?

	13-06-2002 03:45									#135
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well, they were there before it "joined" the union , right?

	13-06-2002 03:49									#136
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You tell me what you guys are going to join next!

Axis of Evil?

	13-06-2002 03:52									#137
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"Most people speak Russian as their mother tongue."

Could you quantify that?

	13-06-2002 04:00									#138
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Here is a particularly interesting part of the report as it relates to this discussion...

"Nostalgia for the former Soviet Union is stronger among Russians than Ukrainians, and predictably, few Russians identify with Ukraine. In the survey, 51 percent of Russians agreed that "it is a great misfortune that the Soviet Union no longer exists," and another 19 percent agreed more than disagreed. The figures for Ukrainians are 35 percent and 17 percent, respectively. Nostalgia for the Soviet Union appears to be a yearning for a time when at least minimal human needs were met, rather than a strong ideological commitment. The question whether Ukraine and Russia should unite drew a similar response. Twenty four percent of Ukrainians thought the country should reunite with Russia, with an additional 19 percent expressing partial support. Russian percentages were 50 and 33 percents, respectively.

"Opinion differs by region, but differences by ethnicity are not available because the data are not tabulated by both region and nationality. Nevertheless, the desire for unification of some sort appears marginal among Ukrainians in the west, but substantial in the east. Ukrainians comprise almost 90 percent of the population in the seven oblasts that joined the Soviet Union after the war.(12) Only 11 percent in these oblasts favored outright unification, with an additional 16 percent being lukewarm to the idea. In the east, where Ukrainians account for 54 percent and Russians for 41 percent, 46 percent of the respondents favored unification and 33 percent favored it advisedly.(13) "

Last edited by DanS on 13-06-2002 at 04:06

	13-06-2002 09:02									#139
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Texas analogy isn't perfect. There has never been a language difference between Texas and the rest of the U.S., for instance.

good one! best I've heard today!

oh as far as growing skin, i wasn't saying i was offended, just that you don't really know what you're talking about. which you don't. there are general misconceptions that everyone who doesn't know has been fed and swallowed hook, line and sinker.

that's about it.

	13-06-2002 09:20									#140
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OK. So I can assume that you aren't going to address the basis for these opinions?

i wasn't saying i was offended

Could you explain the difference between "offended" and "insulted"?

	13-06-2002 09:22									#141
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here is a particularly interesting part of the report as it relates to this discussion... Nevertheless, the desire for unification of some sort appears marginal among Ukrainians in the west, but substantial in the east.

yes, and incidently, the farther east you go, the more population density increases. also, I've already mentioned that here several times without the use of any stinkin surveys.

quote: Ukrainians comprise almost 90 percent of the population in the seven oblasts that joined the Soviet Union after the war.(12) Only 11 percent in these oblasts favored outright unification, with an additional 16 percent being lukewarm to the idea. In the east, where Ukrainians account for 54 percent and Russians for 41 percent, 46 percent of the respondents favored unification and 33 percent favored it advisedly.(13) "[/i]

first of all Ukrain was never really "appart" at that point to be "reunited" in the first place. there were strong seperatist and isolationist movements in both Ukrain AND Russia at that time. as history would prove the "reds" were simply much more strong and numerous of all other factions for better or worse. basically, this "evidence" doesn't say or prove anything here.

I'l point out again, that the people have coexisted as one for much longer than this country has even existed, including all the colonial years.

Also I am not nastalgiac over the SU. I left it to escape communism. but it doesn't automatically mean that i wouldn't like to see the people reunified.

think of it this way, what we are talking about is closer to the situation between east and west german. the only difference is that Russia is at this point only marginally better off today than Ukrain, but its potential is much greater for the future. that's why I say that in 10 years when russia begins to get back up on its feet and Ukrain is still where they are today, they'll begin to draw closer. Belarus' is areguably the most distant of the 3 language/culture wise. But they are economically much weaker than either Russia or Ukraine. They've held out for ~10 years being independent, and they're kinda getting tired of it. give Ukraine another 10 and they'll be in a similar situation... mmkay?

	13-06-2002 09:56									#142
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"the only difference is that Russia is at this point only marginally better off today than Ukrain, but its potential is much greater for the future."

How do you figure this potential?

"give Ukraine another 10 and they'll be in a similar situation..."

Why the fatalism? On what do you base your pessimism?

I take it that your argument is based on the assumption that the west will somehow be swayed by the economic success of Russia? You would have to convince most people in the west that forming a confederacy is the right thing to do for it to fly, correct?

" No matter how long those republics cry about their ‘independence’, they depend of Russia and always will. Georgian people should elect other president. The policy of their current president is the policy of sick man. Their so-called economy based on Russia, they can’t survive without us. The confrontation with Russia is the dead end for Georgia."

Serb: Shevardnadze has always been very well-respected here in Washington.

Last edited by DanS on 13-06-2002 at 11:02

	13-06-2002 11:40									#143
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--"Their so-called economy based on Russia"

That's one of the favourite arguments by Russians about former SU republics. Did you mean oil and other raw materials?

If so, Japan should join Saudi Arabia.

Morb - Ukraine is in much worse economic state. Read papers.

	13-06-2002 11:41									#144
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Personally I am very pessimistic in what concerns perspectives of the hypothetic Russian-Ukrainian reunification in a single state. Sorry, Morb. Certainly, the separation was unnatural and unfortunate. But once that happened, it is practically irreversible. Even assuming for the sake of argument that the majority of the Ukrainian citizens want to reunificate with Russia, there will always remain a significant portion of the population which is against and whose opinion cannot be ignored. Otherwise, instead of mutual benefits we'll only get an additional pain in the ass. In the modern world, unless something unpredictable happens, there seems to be no incentive for that part of the population to change its mind. I don't buy the economic argument, because if Russia goes up economically she will anyway drag Ukraine up.

Perhaps the best for all of us would be to accept the inevitable and to stop unnerving each other with empty talks about reunification. Instead we better concentrate on building a healthy relationship a la EU.

But I would be glad to be wrong on this issue.

	13-06-2002 11:45									#145
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Serb: Shevardnadze has always been very well-respected here in Washington.

The sooner this b@st@rd disappears, the better for both Georgia and Russia.

	13-06-2002 11:54									#146
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"The sooner this b@st@rd disappears, the better for both Georgia and Russia."

What do you have against him?

	13-06-2002 12:55									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "The sooner this b@st@rd disappears, the better for both Georgia and Russia." What do you have against him?

He is obsessively anti-Russian. His policy consists in gaining points with the West using his anti-Russian stance. Hopefully this won't work for him any longer. This looks especially ugly in view of his past as a Soviet foreign minister.

	13-06-2002 13:05									#148
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Personally I am very pessimistic in what concerns perspectives of the hypothetic Russian-Ukrainian reunification in a single state. Sorry, Morb. Certainly, the separation was unnatural and unfortunate. But once that happened, it is practically irreversible. Even assuming for the sake of argument that the majority of the Ukrainian citizens want to reunificate with Russia, there will always remain a significant portion of the population which is against and whose opinion cannot be ignored. Otherwise, instead of mutual benefits we'll only get an additional pain in the ass. In the modern world, unless something unpredictable happens, there seems to be no incentive for that part of the population to change its mind. I don't buy the economic argument, because if Russia goes up economically she will anyway drag Ukraine up. Perhaps the best for all of us would be to accept the inevitable and to stop unnerving each other with empty talks about reunification. Instead we better concentrate on building a healthy relationship a la EU. But I would be glad to be wrong on this issue.

what i originally meant was pretty much what yo have in your middle paragraph. I doubt myself that the sovereignty of Ukraine is a temporary thing. its likely to stay. but what I do pretdict, is that at least the 3, Belarus', Ukraine, Russia will form a strong economic union. it will happen because Russia is likely to make it out of the rut of all 3 and the other too will simply want a piece of the action. Russia of course will be all too eager to setup legit relations because, 1) both Belarus' and Ukraine are already making money off Russia by selling raw materials that do not belong to them but run through their territories and 2) Russia will have some contiguity with western europe for further economic developement. Its already happening. Ukraine, Russia and Germany (France and Italy soon to follow) have already setup a natural GAS consortium in which Russia will supply the resources, Ukraine will control its flow and collect terrifs for the use of its gas lines (and further development of new lines is already on the plan boards) and the west will play the role of the consumer. Further, Ukraine is likely going to be a key player in any kind of goods transportation duties between russia and the west. Ukraine being physically between Russia and the west is something neither the west nore Russia can get around. It is inevitable that Ukraine will draw closer to Russia for its own benifite. The west doesn't need Ukraine, but Russia does.

So even if Ukraine and Russia and Belarus' won't nessesarily be a single unified soveriegn conutry, they will likely become what Canada and US are to each other.

	13-06-2002 13:13									#149
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Vagabond: you cannot be sure , really. If the Russian Economy will begin to grow, and Russia has much healthier prospects in that , relatively to the Ukraine , and if Russia will still remain interested in such a reunification, and if the reunification with Belarus will go relatively well, Chances are , that the Ukrainians will want to join Russia. It's not like their economy conditions will meet TODAY'S EU quota in 20 years. They're going downhill , FAST. My grandmother lives there . It's ****ing hell. The only republics that have actually improved their economic position since the fall of the SU , are the baltic states. The others are worse now. Much worse.

	13-06-2002 13:13									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Saras --"Their so-called economy based on Russia" That's one of the favourite arguments by Russians about former SU republics. Did you mean oil and other raw materials? If so, Japan should join Saudi Arabia. Morb - Ukraine is in much worse economic state. Read papers.

oh sure, japan and saudi arabia have a lengthy mutual history and are pratctically the same.

We know you guys hate us. You've always hated us. You were the first to leave in '89 etc. We have no illusions of you ever willingly rejoining with Russia. Plus you're in a better geographical position than any of the former republics an have the closest ties to the west. So you're free... But at least once a month I hear of something on the news of one of the bastards from over there either smuggling things (and women) out of Russia or robbing Russian citizens or simply murdering them.

Not really nice.