11-07-2002 14:02									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Zimbabwe's independence came in 1980, less than one generation ago. All land aquired prior to 1980 was stolen by a white minority government. Any white person sitting on a farm in 1979 stole that farm from Africans. In some cases the land may have been stolen originally in 1930 but guess what - buying property known to be stolen (or receiving such property) is a crime in every nation I can think of. So yes, the vast majority of white farmers in Zim are thieves.

Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) declared it's independance in from Britain 1965. This of course has nothing to do with questions of who owns land there.

Talks brokered by Britain between the white government and the main black groups led by Joshua Nkomo and Robert Mugabe respectively lead to elections in 1980, where Robert Mugabe's coalition gained a victory. Mugabe was named prime minister, and the country was renamed Zimbabwe. Britain signed off on the agreement officially recognizing the independence of "Rhodesia" as did all of the aformentioned groups. Part of that agreement stipulated that current legal land ownership would remain legal in the eyes of the new government, with funds raised by land taxes and supplied by Britain to compensate black war veterans. Mugabe's government stole that money and distributed it to members of the ruling party, causing Britain to refuse to continue payments and causing a large amount of unrest amongst supporters of Nkomo who were shafted in the process. Protests were brutally put down by members of Mugabe's specially trained (in North Korea) forces.

Land owned by anyone in Zimbabwe in 1979 has as much legal standing as land owned by anyone in Israel or the United States, or any former colony for that matter. The declaration of independence from Britain was not accompanied by a sudden illegal transfer of lands from any party to any other party, the racial makeup of the country and possession of lands having been the result of actions taken both before Rhodesia became an official possession of Britain and afterwards. Actions taken by the white parliament in the 1920's and 1930s were the most egregious racially motivated land thefts. Once whites were in control they of course insisted on the orderly and legal transfers of titles.

Thus title to the lands of Zimbabwe are legal by agreement of not only the former colonial master Britain, but also the former independent white minority government as well as the current black majority government. Even if these titles were non-existent, lands worked for a number of years by whites de facto become lands which are owned by whites de jure (squatters rights). I notice that no one is being charged with theft here, merely that armed thugs who belong to Mugabe's party are using violence to sieze land with the blessing of the government and the security forces.

Does your joy at the violence being visited on the ancestors of white colonists in the name of justice or vengeance a few generations late blind you to the fact that these people never stole anything, or the fact that most of the people being killed are farm workers rather than farm owners, or the fact that the land is only being given to Mugabe's thugs rather than distributed to landless blacks in general, or the fact that the chaotic nature of this theft is dooming millions to malnutrition at best and starvation at worst?

Do I have the right to throw my neighbors into the street by virtue of the Cherokee blood that flows through my veins and the fact that my neighbors are WASPs? There is a large gulf between history and justice that cannot be filled by t!t for tat action decades or centuries after the fact, as emotionally satisfying as that might seem to someone far from the action reading about it in the comfort of their home built on land doubtlessly stolen at some point in history. That energy would be much better spent preventing these crimes in the first place, rather than visiting historical "justice" long after the fact on the innocent and perpetuating the hatred, especially when it is all a cynical ploy to divide and rule by a hateful man who doesn't give a damn how many have to die for him to remain in power even as his accursed life force diminishes to nothing.

	11-07-2002 14:11									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Do you have any facts to back up your claim?

The very thing i ask you.
From the start, if you care to look, I said, let us wait for the facts before drawing ANY conclusion.
You seem to be unwilling to do this.

quote: When was the last time a bunch of people stopped a cop from beating up a suspect?

Have you actually viewed the tape?
I caught it today, it shows the boy being thrown on a car hood, but only in extreme close-up do we see what appears to be a punch, hardly what a crowd would consider 'brutality".
Too many people jump to conclusions, you seem to have prejudged the whole incident.

quote: A lot of people here are jumping to the conclusion that racism was not a factor, even though there are no facts yet to support that assertion. At the same time, there are no facts yet to support the assertion that race was a factor.

Which is EXACTLY what I said earlier, so was quite surprissed to see myself quoted as some sort of police appologist.

	11-07-2002 14:26									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Carver No. Killing is wrong period. Mugabe should not be out to kill whites, and I have seen no evidence that he is. People here have seen reports of a few whites dying during a turbulent and tense political situation and are assuming that the deaths are organized genocide. No whites were lined up and shot by Mugabe's men. They died during chaotic situations during which many more blacks died . As I've said Mugabe has been wrong to let the land reform program become so chaotic. But loosing control of a situation is not synonomous with racial hatred.

You have said several times that whites "stole the land", does this mean you belive that whites should not be allowed in Africa period?

Whites cannot own anything in Africa, no matter what the circumstances?

That ancestors are responcible for sins of the father, no matter how far back you must travel to find said sins, real or imagined?

If so, your setting a dangerous, and racist prescident, if true, your saying that one race has no rights to certain territory, and then if we take this along it's logical path, all whites must be removed to Europe (including all Americans and Canadians, Anzacs, ALL of them), all Blacks must be removed to Africa, all Asians to Asia, ectetera.
Of course that is rediculous, but if it is, why is just a portion of that acceptable?

Are you really saying that Africa is the only place on Earth where your race determines whether you can own land and live?

The main trouble with trying to correct past wrongs is you can't find the culprets, so surigits are selected to be punished in place of the real criminals.

You might as well select people off the street at random and punish them, the effect is the same, total lawlessness and a system that is so unfair as to be laughable.

For a government to be considered legit it MUST uphold the oaths it gives to it's citizens, white, Black, whatever color.
The truth of the matter is this wasn't done in Zimbabwe, but your saying that the whites "had it coming" so to speak goes against the very tenants of human morals and deceny.

I seriously suggest you reconsider your postion on this matter, and thourghly consider the full ramifacations.

	11-07-2002 14:28									#124
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Chris62: Nice dodge. Try answering the questions. You have made a lot of claims, but how about some facts to back up your words.

You said that when a person claims to be a victim of racism, it usually isn't true. What facts do you have to back up that statement?

I asked "Let's see, there are of cops armed with guns and the power to arrest people. How many people would be willing to stop them from beating up a suspect?"

Your response was "thousands."

Talk is cheap. Provide some examples where people have stepped in to stop a policeman from beating up a suspect.

If this is too difficult for you to do, and it probably is, then here is a simple question: Are you willing to accept the possibility that this incident was racially motivated?

	11-07-2002 14:37									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Chris62: Nice dodge. Try answering the questions. You have made a lot of claims, but how about some facts to back up your words.

Your imagination is working overtime again, I made no claims whatsoever.

quote: You said that when a person claims to be a victim of racism, it usually isn't true. What facts do you have to back up that statement?

I said that?
It's news to me.
But in point of fact, I yet to see such a case as this where the non-police party DIDN'T claim racism was involved.
Just this week we had Micheal jackson of all people claiming racism for his poor album sales!
Even Al Sharpton thought he was nuts.

quote: I asked "Let's see, there are of cops armed with guns and the power to arrest people. How many people would be willing to stop them from beating up a suspect?" Your response was "thousands."

Try it NY or in watts, and see if people stand around.
Sorry if your limited experience precludes this, in fact, in New Orleans for example, party goers have actually helped criminals escape police, these are well documented cases.

quote: Talk is cheap. Provide some examples where people have stepped in to stop a policeman from beating up a suspect.

Think about what you just asked for.
How can people know a suspect will be beaten till he is?Your question is absurd.

quote: If this is too difficult for you to do, and it probably is, then here is a simple question: Are you willing to accept the possibility that this incident was racially motivated?

I have been willing from the satrt, but if you look, and it's obvious from this you didn't, I said wait for facts before jumping to conclusions.

It's not my fault YOU made the wrong assumptions here.

	11-07-2002 14:50									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Your imagination is working overtime again, I made no claims whatsoever. I said that? It's news to me.

Your memory is slipping. Look at your previous posts.

I wrote: "Why is it that whenever a black man is assaulted by a white cop, people immediately start screaming "THIS ISN'T RACISM!!!"

In response, you wrote: "Because it usually isn't."

Now that we've dealt with your memory problem, how about some facts to back up your statement.

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 In fact, in New Orleans for example, party goers have actually helped criminals escape police, these are well documented cases.

The issue here is people stopping police from beating up a suspect, not people helping people to escape. But anyways, if these cases are well-documented then it will be easy for you to provide some specific information. How about some links to articles that back up your claim that when a suspect is beaten by cops, it is common for people to step in to prevent the beating.

	11-07-2002 15:56									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your memory is slipping. Look at your previous posts.

Hardly.

quote: I wrote: "Why is it that whenever a black man is assaulted by a white cop, people immediately start screaming "THIS ISN'T RACISM!!!" In response, you wrote: "Because it usually isn't." Now that we've dealt with your memory problem, how about some facts to back up your statement.

How about some to back up yours?
How many race bias cases have been proven against police in the US?
The only one I can think of off-hand is Rodney King, even the Louima case wasn't a race crime, but a matter of cops trying to assert their absolute authority over someone.

quote: The issue here is people stopping police from beating up a suspect, not people helping people to escape. But anyways, if these cases are well-documented then it will be easy for you to provide some specific information. How about some links to articles that back up your claim that when a suspect is beaten by cops, it is common for people to step in to prevent the beating.

How about something that says police beating suspects is common?

If you can provide that, it will really be something.

You have been barking up the wrong tree with me all along here Tinky, give it up.

	11-07-2002 16:05									#128
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Ah, another "debate" between "adults"

	11-07-2002 18:20									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 How about some to back up yours? How many race bias cases have been proven against police in the US? The only one I can think of off-hand is Rodney King, even the Louima case wasn't a race crime, but a matter of cops trying to assert their absolute authority over someone.

Chris, in all fairness. It´s damn hard to prove ANYTHING visavi the cops. The establisment is after all on the same sida as the cops. In Sweden we had numerous incidents of police brutality during the EU-summit here last summer. Among other things the cops shot three people and fired live round into a fleeing bunch of people (the first time that happened since 1932). Yet NOT ONE cop has been indicted, despite the fact that all of it is caught on film.

Police harassing black people is a fact, something that can be confirmed by talking to actual black people. (I´ll see if I can dig up a few links in english). It is the same in the US as in Sweden or as it was in apartheid South Africa. Unfortunately

quote: How about something that says police beating suspects is common? If you can provide that, it will really be something.

This is also a fact, but again hard to prove since the cops don´t admit it. They stick together and defend each other, the infamous 'esprit de corps'. (I´ll do some digging here also.)

Chris, I understand it´s hard to accept that the police, the defenders of public order and safety, is in fact racist bastards. You are not in a situation where you are likely to get harassed or beaten. But we, who have been victims of police harassment and/or have had friends beaten by the cops for no other reason than their skin colour, don´t lie. Trust us on this.

	11-07-2002 18:31									#130
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I'm affraid your working from misconceptions, I never said I didn't believe that, Tinky said I didn't believe it.

I said wait for facts, and I know full well how the police operate, but i also know that every arrested non-white claims racism at some point.

	11-07-2002 18:35									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I said wait for facts, and I know full well how the police operate, but i also know that every arrested non-white claims racism at some point.

"every non-white" - that is total racist crapola from you. All on-whites don't act alike. Not all blacks act alike. Any sentence you make with "every non-white" is racist so don't do it if you profess to be a non-racist.

	11-07-2002 18:55									#132
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Save it kid, you act grows thin.

Trying to brand me a racist is just more of your stupidity.

Accept that people here have relivent arguments and move on, you made enough of a fool of yourself in this thread.

	11-07-2002 18:58									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I'm affraid your working from misconceptions, I never said I didn't believe that, Tinky said I didn't believe it.

OK, got you!

quote: I said wait for facts, and I know full well how the police operate, but i also know that every arrested non-white claims racism at some point.

I wouldn´t say EVERY non-white...but it´s true it´s a common claim. Sadly there´s some truth in those claims usually

	11-07-2002 19:00									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X While I don´t deny the good things Mugabe did as a freedom fighter these last few years he´s gone completely of the deep end. The man has become a paranoid racist bastard, much like Josef Stalin was. Mugabe´s gotta go. A new government must be elected.

I couldnt let this go one go. Mugabe and ZAPU and his counterpart bandit warlord Nkomo (ZANU) were terrorists who preyed upon their own black countrymen and a few unarmed whites. For example, reports are available about the missionarys that were killed in Rhodesia. Reports about the number of blacks who were killed and mutilated are harder to find but if you're interested in the truth you'll look. Mugabe and his bandit-terrorists were not "freedom fighters" in any sense of the word.

If you take the time to find and examine the military reports from Rhodesia in the late 1970's you'll find that ZANU and ZAPU almost never engaged any forces that were capable of actually fighting back. A typical engagement included ZANU or ZAPU "freedom fighters" terrorizing a rural village (in order to win the hearts and minds) then running for the hills. The Rhodesian Armies response was to track em by helicopter but also with calvary. The ZANU and ZAPU terrorists would run pretty fast though since they didnt stand a chance against real soldiers as opposed to unarmed villagers.

Mugabe didnt change, he was always just a terrorist-bandit.

	11-07-2002 19:01									#135
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It's a generalization Kamrat, tis true, unfortunatly it's also a very effective weapon.

	11-07-2002 19:24									#136
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I saw an interview of the cameraman on BET and he, a white man, said that at first he thought that it was not that big of a deal because he had been the victim of police brutality in the past. That is a problem... that people get so involved in police brutality against blacks that they forget that police can be brutal to anyone, including whites... Yes, Kamrat X, it happens... And I fail to see how a Swede would know anything about the American police forces.


anyway, with Mugabe...

When it comes to Third World dictators like him, I truly believe that he is fairly well intentioned. I don't think we're really dealing with an Edi Amin here... Mugabe wants to aide his fellow Zimbabweans. Rhodesia was unjustly ruled by a minority... now Zimbabwe is being unjustly ruled by the mob of the majority (black Zimbabweans). It is an improvement, I feel, and I can understand why poor blacks there want to take land from the old ruling class they deposed not that long ago...


thanks

	11-07-2002 19:36									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Save it kid, you act grows thin. Trying to brand me a racist is just more of your stupidity. Accept that people here have relivent arguments and move on, you made enough of a fool of yourself in this thread.

Chris62, just how stupid are you?

Making statments like "all non-whites..." or "all blacks..." is plainly racist and to do so is stupid, so look at your own stupidity. Or you can continue to wallow in ignorance and prejudice along with Spencer and his recount of The History of Southern Africa According To A Buch of Racist Boer Bastards .

	11-07-2002 19:41									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Chris62, just how stupid are you?

Apparently nowhere close to you, if this thread is any indication.

quote: Making statments like "all non-whites..." or "all blacks..." is plainly racist and to do so is stupid, so look at your own stupidity. Or you can continue to wallow in ignorance and prejudice along with Spencer and his recount of The History of Southern Africa According To A Buch of Racist Boer Bastards .

Trying to brand me a racist because you made a jack-ass of yourself fools nobody.

	11-07-2002 19:47									#139
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Chris62, is there any substance in your head or just insults?

	11-07-2002 19:49									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why is it that whenever a black man is assaulted by a white cop, people immediately start screaming "THIS ISN'T RACISM!!!"

Why is it that whenever a black man is assaulted by a white cop, people immediately start screaming "THIS IS RACISM!!!"

	11-07-2002 19:52									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 It's a generalization Kamrat, tis true, unfortunatly it's also a very effective weapon.

But there must be something else behing these allegations then? As I see it (from a leftist point of view) these people are alienated in society (in the US as well as in Sweden). Why is that? It couldn´t be that they´re 'criminal by nature' or 'genetically proned to laziness'. as some (not you) claim?

As I see it there´s a latent racism in western society that alienates blacks thus creating (almost) all the violence and criminality credited to the black community. And since the police are defenders of the state and it´s people against internal disturbances of the order their actions are often directed against black people. More than against white (procentually speaking). And further more; since black people aren´t viewed as 'productive citizens' (since they don´t have jobs in the same extent as white people) it´s easier to step on their civil rights.

	11-07-2002 20:02									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Yes, Kamrat X, it happens... And I fail to see how a Swede would know anything about the American police forces.

Erhm, there IS such a thing as newspapers, TV and Internet. As well as comrades like che and others I know in RL (who live in the states). Of course there is a possibilty that this is an elaborate "black-communist conspiracy" aimed at white middle class America...

quote: When it comes to Third World dictators like him, I truly believe that he is fairly well intentioned. I don't think we're really dealing with an Edi Amin here... Mugabe wants to aide his fellow Zimbabweans. Rhodesia was unjustly ruled by a minority... now Zimbabwe is being unjustly ruled by the mob of the majority (black Zimbabweans). It is an improvement, I feel, and I can understand why poor blacks there want to take land from the old ruling class they deposed not that long ago... thanks

Well, yes Zimbawe is in dire need of a land reform. But the way Mugabe is doing it is wrong. There must be some other way to solve this.

	11-07-2002 20:02									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Chris62, is there any substance in your head or just insults?

You really are a petulent little twit, aern't you?

I gave you the benifit of the doubt, but you have proven to be a fool.

Stop wasting my time boy, grab yourself some sense and try to hold a discourse with some substance.

	11-07-2002 20:05									#144
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I couldnt let this go one go. Mugabe and ZAPU and his counterpart bandit warlord Nkomo (ZANU) were terrorists who preyed upon their own black countrymen and a few unarmed whites. For example, reports are available about the missionarys that were killed in Rhodesia. Reports about the number of blacks who were killed and mutilated are harder to find but if you're interested in the truth you'll look. Mugabe and his bandit-terrorists were not "freedom fighters" in any sense of the word. If you take the time to find and examine the military reports from Rhodesia in the late 1970's you'll find that ZANU and ZAPU almost never engaged any forces that were capable of actually fighting back. A typical engagement included ZANU or ZAPU "freedom fighters" terrorizing a rural village (in order to win the hearts and minds) then running for the hills. The Rhodesian Armies response was to track em by helicopter but also with calvary. The ZANU and ZAPU terrorists would run pretty fast though since they didnt stand a chance against real soldiers as opposed to unarmed villagers. Mugabe didnt change, he was always just a terrorist-bandit.

Well, there´s always two sides of a story I guess... Do you have any links that supports your position? I´m always open for other points of view.

	11-07-2002 20:09									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X But there must be something else behing these allegations then? As I see it (from a leftist point of view) these people are alienated in society (in the US as well as in Sweden). Why is that? It couldn´t be that they´re 'criminal by nature' or 'genetically proned to laziness'. as some (not you) claim?

I believe the truth is they aern't treated as equals, but as children.
Blacks are told they need help to suceed (be it welfare or affirmative action) instead of being told they are the equal of everyone else.

There is also the growing nonsense of "reperations", another way of saying the black man is a perpetual victim who must always be helped with some handout.

Blacks are treated differently then whites, there is no denying it, but that doesn't mean all cases of abuse are racially motivated.
Many police officers are simply power mad brutes, I have seen this type side by side with normal people.

quote: As I see it there´s a latent racism in western society that alienates blacks thus creating (almost) all the violence and criminality credited to the black community. And since the police are defenders of the state and it´s people against internal disturbances of the order their actions are often directed against black people. More than against white (procentually speaking). And further more; since black people aren´t viewed as 'productive citizens' (since they don´t have jobs in the same extent as white people) it´s easier to step on their civil rights.

I would tend to agree with your interpretation.
There has been great strides in the US to change this, but it will persist as long as they are viewed as black people and not just people.

	11-07-2002 20:19									#146
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Kamrat X

Lets put it this way, at that time I was a soldier with a special interest in what was happening in Rhodesia. Nuff said. Since it was going on every day, it was pretty easy to follow what was happening there. 20 years later anyone would have to wallow through a lot of web-disinformation to get to the truth and they might not know it if they saw it.

Its possible that Mugabe truly started as a real reformer with the ANC in Rhodesia (but I doubt it), since that was earlier than my time.


Carver,

quote: Or you can continue to wallow in ignorance and prejudice along with Spencer and his recount of The History of Southern Africa According To A Buch of Racist Boer Bastards .

Keep your head in the sand like a good ostrich.

	11-07-2002 20:25									#147
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Calm down, Carver... don't speak if you dont have any real response but assumptions.

	11-07-2002 20:27									#148
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I heard this morning that the suspect tried to grab the cop in his crotch. It doesn't appear to be a racist motive at this point but it is possible that the suspect really did hate whites.

	11-07-2002 21:24									#149
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I just saw in Euronews another beating footage, supposed to be new and from Oklahoma. Again two cops plus black kid. I guess no one can miss it, they'll hype it in the news for sure. Is the media to be blamed if riots burst? This is just more fuel to the fire....

	11-07-2002 21:30									#150
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SpenceH, if Mugabe's forces didn't fight actual troops, how is it that Rhodesia ceased to exist? I was around then too, and what you're writing sounds a lot more like the stuff that Ian Smith was saying than what everyone else was saying.