09-08-2002 01:11									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But that hasn't been conclusively proven. They might be brought up Muslims if the powerplay in the marriage goes a different way.

I don't know where you're going with this, Imran. The mother has stated she's not going to raise her sons as muslim, so why would the mother get them circumcised for religion reasons?

	09-08-2002 01:12									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed longer than five minutes, less lubrication? never had that problem myself, and i haven't used any outside products, either...

Maybe I underexaggerated, butl, if you've ever had lots of sex for a long amount of time, you'd notice this

	09-08-2002 01:17									#243
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quote: The mother has stated she's not going to raise her sons as muslim

Yes, but when the child comes, maybe she'll yield to her husband, who MAY wish to raise them Muslim. So the religious argument could come into play.

	09-08-2002 01:17									#244
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I'm very appreciative of everyone's input. I'm not going to do it. I know this sounds bad, but my when husband and I can't agree, I get my way. I'd prefer it the other way. I'm sure that I can convince him in three months, considering the progress I already made in one night.

No one who believes in circumcision seems to have justifiable defenses (no offense, please). One word replies don't cut it (hygiene!). Religious reasons don't cut, since, of course, I could never do something for those reasons.

The only thing left seems to be looking funny and being laughed at. I actually can understand undergoing surgery to avoid this because I used to have a mole on my face, and when I was 10 my grandparents paid for two surgeries to take it off. But this was on my face, and the surgery certainly did have adverse effects. I was a competitive swimmer, and I was never able to get back into the position I had been in. If I could have chosen afterwards, I would have chosen to be the swimmer I could have been. Even if it is better not to be ridiculed, it's also a good idea to wait to see if this really happens, how my son reacts to it, and what his personal choice would be.

	09-08-2002 01:18									#245
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Sneak: You could just educate your son to have sex with condoms, that's still no guarantee.

	09-08-2002 01:18									#246
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Yes, Imran, because we know how weak-willed women are when it comes to their children.

	09-08-2002 01:20									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, but when the child comes, maybe she'll yield to her husband, who MAY wish to raise them Muslim. So the religious argument could come into play.

Yes, why don't we circumcise everyone who might be muslim later in life. Just to be on the safe side!

	09-08-2002 01:21									#248
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I can't believe anyone would ridicule someone for being uncircumsized. That's disgusting.

	09-08-2002 01:22									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui ... maybe she'll yield to her husband...

You must not know me.

	09-08-2002 01:24									#250
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I can't believe anyone would ridicule someone for being uncircumsized. That's disgusting.

Indeed. I think it has to do with jealousy, although circumcised men would deny it, but why else would they tease someone who has what they were born with? I think many kids who had their parents decide to chop off their foreskin would feel a bit jealous, if not subconsciously, of a kid who still has all of his and doesn't have any of the problems his parents told him were prevented by circumcision.

	09-08-2002 01:25									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yes, why don't we circumcise everyone who might be muslim later in life. Just to be on the safe side!

	09-08-2002 01:26									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed longer than five minutes, less lubrication? never had that problem myself, and i haven't used any outside products, either...

Well, you know you're constantly pumping her dry... where do you think the wet spot comes from?

	09-08-2002 01:30									#253
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Phew, I thought I was the only one for a second there!

	09-08-2002 01:30									#254
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I'm not really jealous of uncircumcized men, as I get plenty of pleasure out of sex. I wouldn't mind getting more, true.

I admit that when I first became sexually active, I held the usual stereotypes about uncut penises being unclean and found the idea gross. Well, my first boyfriend happened to be uncircumcized, and I actually didn't realize at first (when erect, it is hard to notice). Only when I saw it flaccid did I learn that he was uncircumcized. Ever since, it hasn't been an issue.

I think that once the silly stereotypes about hygene start getting swept aside (which will be inevitable, since more and more men will be uncircumcized), it will be an irrelevent issue in terms of sexual preference by the partner.

	09-08-2002 01:31									#255
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I dunno about the jealousy thing. Having been on the end of the "your just jealous" when I was disagreeing with US stuff I am careful about using it. I think kids just make fun of anyone who's different for any reason.

Here where it's more usual for people to be uncircumsized I never saw anyone be teased for being circumsized although knowing what kids are like I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

	09-08-2002 01:32									#256
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Whoopee! Asher, you have too much time on your hands.
If and when you have a child, and actually talk to a medical professional in person, rather than basing your opinions on Internet studies (which I only supplied to support my argument) you may find that even the slimmest of chances at saving your child from disease and or death is enough justification.
Until you have a child, you have no idea how difficult it is to make such decisions. But even you must admit that with no definitive proof either way, a person may be logically inclined to err on the side of conservatism.
Someday I may be proven wrong--but until that day, I sleep well at night.

And using condoms is only a preventative, not a cure, as I can attest that condoms often break.

	09-08-2002 01:35									#257
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak And using condoms is only a preventative, not a cure, as I can attest that condoms often break.

Well, I'm sure condoms are still a much better preventative measure than being circumcized.

	09-08-2002 01:35									#258
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Sneak...

I appreciate how you're trying to belittle the evidence piled infront of you, but:

When all 28 known publications of HIV and circumcision correlations are compiled together, the end result is a "significant increased" succeptability to HIV in circumcised men. There is the odd study that claims otherwise, and that's what pro-circumcision people jump to all the time for support, but there's more evidence against it in the medical community.

What does this have to do with me not having a kid? You and blackice really should stop using those types of arguments, they're stupid as hell...

	09-08-2002 01:37									#259
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How about the fact that our OBGYN suggested it strongly, as in her opinion the evidence was inconclusive enough to warrant caution?
I suppose you know more about babies than a woman who has delivered hundreds of them, eh?
Is there no end to your magnificent supply of wisdom?

	09-08-2002 01:37									#260
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Yeah, well having a slight layer of natural protection that may or may not help prevent HIV is hardly something to rely on anyway.

If I had a child I'd be very, very wary about having any kind of operation done on them. Especially an unecessary one. They could always get done when they are older and can have anaesthetic before they become sexually active.

	09-08-2002 01:37									#261
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SS--It wasn't an Internet study, it was a medical study that happens to be posted on the internet.

How is loping off the foreskin erring on the side of conservatism? You're not conserving anything. And if, as this study shows, you've actually increased the risk of HIV transmission for the kid, what will have been accomplished then?

I guarantee you that using condoms is a far more effective preventative than circumcision.

	09-08-2002 01:38									#262
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak How about the fact that our OBGYN suggested it strongly, as in her opinion the evidence was inconclusive enough to warrant caution?

An OBGYN is not a pediatrician, and the American Pediatric Society recommends against circumcision...so...

	09-08-2002 01:40									#263
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Did you read the article? There were at least four reasons cited for increased risk in the uncircumcised. I thought it was very balanced, personally.

I'm not saying it is the only way, just a possible additional insurance against disease. That and the professional opinion of a medical worker who has vastly more pertinent insight than your average teenaged web surfer is enough for me.

	09-08-2002 01:40									#264
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak How about the fact that our OBGYN suggested it strongly, as in her opinion the evidence was inconclusive enough to warrant caution? I suppose you know more about babies than a woman who has delivered hundreds of them, eh? Is there no end to your magnificent supply of wisdom?

Anyone knows that when a doctor recommends a surgical procedure, you immediately get a second opinion. I'd do it for myself, you'd be sure as hell I'd do it for my kid. Being an OBGYN doesn't make one infallible. Many doctors get caught up in relying on outdated data, and with the incredible rate at which information changes these days, particularly with HIV transmission, it is always likely a doctor may be relying on outdated information.

	09-08-2002 01:42									#265
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You are such a hair splitter, Asher. It really makes me sick sometimes.
You're one of those people who can never be wrong, and, in my opinion, is therefore always wrong.

I have peppered most of my replies with an admission that I recognize both sides...you never do.

	09-08-2002 01:42									#266
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Did you read the article? There were at least four reasons cited for increased risk in the uncircumcised. I thought it was very balanced, personally.

So I guess the majority of the studies on the same issues are false?

I can find multiple reports talking about how the studies saying uncut men are more at risk are poorly done, but I can't find any trashing the ones saying cut men are more at risk.

Am I missing something?

	09-08-2002 01:43									#267
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Hate to break it to you guys, but the last person I'm going to entrust my son's future penile health to is a gay man.

	09-08-2002 01:44									#268
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak You are such a hair splitter, Asher. It really makes me sick sometimes. You're one of those people who can never be wrong, and, in my opinion, is therefore always wrong.

And you're a car salesman. This isn't a light issue, you should be splitting hairs on it too. Only a moron wouldn't...

quote: I have peppered most of my replies with an admission that I recognize both sides...you never do.

You have done no such thing.
And I frequently stradle both sides of many issues, just not on this one.

I've done my research, my parents talked to doctors about it when I was born, there is overwhelming medical evidence debunking the need for circumcision, there is overwhelming evidence from the American Pediatric Society, the government of Canada, and in fact most of the world stating circumcision is not needed.

Yet your wife's OBGYN (what the hell is the OBGYN doing tell your wife anything about a newborn son after birth?) says circumcision prevents HIV, and you jump for it without thinking.

You should be splitting hairs too, Sneak. It's your kid, FFS...

	09-08-2002 01:45									#269
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Oh, brother...let's just say I did it because I'm a right wing Catholic, ok?

	09-08-2002 01:46									#270
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Our pediatrician is Jewish and we are alpha WASPy, when we asked if he recommended circumcision, he said "not unless you are worried about being kosher"

oh, and it is the "American Acadamy of Pediatrics" www.aap.org