09-08-2002 03:04									#331
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Asher How can you respect the husband's religion when he himself doesn't respect it?

Who says he doesn't respect his religion, I'm MOrmon and I respect the religion, but I drink smoke, have pre-marital sex and drink caffeine.

Just because I don't live it, doesn't mean I don't respect it.

I'm not gay, but I hold gay people in respect, too!

	09-08-2002 03:05									#332
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

There hasn't been jack **** debunked in this thread. You couldn't debunk your way out of a paper bag.

	09-08-2002 03:05									#333
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not just the religion. She says in arguments she gets her way because she's strong willed and he's not. She likes to roll all over him. I have a sneaking suspicion that she dumped ck, because he stood up for himself.

The dominant partner in every relationship doesn't have to be the man.
In many cases it can be the opposite these days.

quote: But Asher, you only hear what you want to, so I'll let you go off and keep doing that.

I hear what is said, and you're not saying anything new.

	09-08-2002 03:06									#334
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm sorry, but I belong to this culture and you don't!

Here's your cookie.

quote: You can think it nasty, but I've seen it. If your husband is waffling over whether to be more religious, there is a good chance HE WILL BE. The culture is simply too strong. Unless he is totally against his religion and culture and will never even think about being religious (like I am), the traditions will probably suck him in. I've seen where a man had a religious revival and then wanted to raise the kids Muslim, and when the wife disagreed, he left her.

I wouldn't really say he is waffling about whether to be religious, really just whether he will continue some of it's practices. He made his choice about not being a practicing Muslim long before he met me AND long before he left Lebanon. I don't think anything is going to change that. I'm sorry if YOU don't understand this, but my husband is an individual. If you ask him what he believes in, he will say, "Me."

quote: And furthermore, he is a man that seems to defer to you on everything. How long do you think it'll be before his buddies tell him to stand up for himself. And then when do you think you will do when suddenly he gets a backbone?

Upon what are you basing this assumption? It has only happened once or twice where we simply could not agree. We are actually able to discuss through things more often than not. If he's wrong, he's wrong, if I am, than I am. I recently did something I really really didn't want to do for quite some time because he felt the opposite way, and we managed to come to the conclusion that he was right. He has plenty of backbone. He's just learning to use his brain too.

	09-08-2002 03:06									#335
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: The dominant partner in every religion doesn't have to be the man. In many cases it can be the opposite these days.

Why the Hell does there HAVE to be a dominant partner at all?!

quote: you're not saying anything new.

You just aren't listening.

	09-08-2002 03:06									#336
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak There hasn't been jack **** debunked in this thread. You couldn't debunk your way out of a paper bag.

So all of those numerous medical journal references with specific points debunking each of the studies linking HIV infection rates to uncircumcised men didn't do it for you? Did you even read them?

	09-08-2002 03:08									#337
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why the Hell does there HAVE to be a dominant partner at all?!

There doesn't HAVE to be, it's just how some relationships work out.

Some people are more submissive than dominant. That's why there's tops and bottoms in gay relationships.

quote: You just aren't listening.

That's a generic copout argument, because you truly haven't said anything.

The husband isn't a full-on muslim, he switches back and forth into believing it, why should the kid be circumcised if he's not going to be raised that way?

The kid can always be circumcised later and become muslim if he wants...

	09-08-2002 03:09									#338
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: I wouldn't really say he is waffling about whether to be religious, really just whether he will continue some of it's practices.

You say to-mah-toe, I say to-may-toe

quote: He's just learning to use his brain too.

Because you feel he hasn't been? Yeah, you respect him.

I'm sorry, but if it was reversed, and it was the man saying this, the women would yell and scream about how horrible it was. Another gender double standard.

	09-08-2002 03:10									#339
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Yes, and I think this is important, especially because it's not me who has to live with it, it's my son."

The magnitude of this choice does not rest on the fact that you're making it for your and your husband's son.

I guess it's more important topic than most threads around here. But that's not saying much.

	09-08-2002 03:10									#340
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The husband isn't a full-on muslim, he switches back and forth into believing it, why should the kid be circumcised if he's not going to be raised that way?

Um... again, you AREN'T LISTENING. When did I say the kid had to be circumsized because he might be a Muslim? I didn't. You said, the religious question doesn't matter because they won't be Muslims. I said they might. Once again, you hear what you want.

	09-08-2002 03:10									#341
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm sorry, but if it was reversed, and it was the man saying this, the women would yell and scream about how horrible it was. Another gender double standard.

Yeah, and then there are the people who should mind their own business.

Some men are submissive, believe it or not.
Some women are submissive also.

	09-08-2002 03:12									#342
	Remove this text

quote: Some men are submissive, believe it or not. Some women are submissive also.

Yet they shouldn't be. Submissiveness isn't a trait, it is the result of social conditioning. It's not something that should be played up. Domination shouldn't either. Simply because we don't own slaves anymore doesn't mean we have to act on the wanting for domination in the bedroom.

	09-08-2002 03:13									#343
	Put an end to popups!

Who's gonna respect the kid?

	09-08-2002 03:13									#344
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... again, you AREN'T LISTENING. When did I say the kid had to be circumsized because he might be a Muslim? I didn't. You said, the religious question doesn't matter because they won't be Muslims. I said they might.

I don't think you understand what you're saying.
I'm saying religion isn't a valid reason for getting her child circumcised since the child is not being raised muslim.

You said he might be muslim, talking about how the husband may snap one of these days, etc etc.

So you're in fact not saying the kid should be circumcised because he might be muslim? Why did you bring it up then?

	09-08-2002 03:14									#345
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Why did you bring it up then?

Because you weren't talking about this specific case. You were talking about circumcision in general, and I answered in general. Then you brough specifics into it, and I gave you an example involving this specific.

	09-08-2002 03:15									#346
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yet they shouldn't be. Submissiveness isn't a trait, it is the result of social conditioning.

Many psychologists would disagree, many would agree. No one knows for sure.

Personally I'm very submissive IRL, so it might be from social conditioning and it might be a trait, I don't know. I don't see how it matters, because that's who I am.

If I were in a relationship, I'd most likely be submissive. That's one of the main reasons I don't want to be in one.

Maybe he is naturally submissive (it sure sounds like it) as well. That's just how some people are.

	09-08-2002 03:16									#347
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because you weren't talking about this specific case. You were talking about circumcision in general, and I answered in general. Then you brough specifics into it, and I gave you an example involving this specific.

I was talking specifically to this case, but I should have specified I guess. I would assume people would have figured out I supported circumcision if they were doing it for religious reasons because I made that very clear in my initial posts...

	09-08-2002 03:17									#348
	Tired of ads?

Usually people consider circumcision under religion to be even more barbarious. Who ever said I read all your posts?

	09-08-2002 03:19									#349
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Usually people consider circumcision under religion to be even more barbarious. Who ever said I read all your posts?

If people are doing it out of faith, then that's up to them. It's their family.

When people do it based on things like wanting their kids to look like most other people in the locker room, or off some oft-debunked studies about penile cancer or STDs, then they should figure out that there's no medical reason for circumciscion.

I can't think of a single medical organization in North America or Europe which recommends circumcising newborns for medical reasons, all of the ones I've found say not to.

	09-08-2002 03:20									#350
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Asher So all of those numerous medical journal references with specific points debunking each of the studies linking HIV infection rates to uncircumcised men didn't do it for you? Did you even read them?

From your own source, brain trust (bolds and italics are mine):

quote: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision.

Hmmmm....ok...that was done. Potential benefits AND risks...seems you didn't read your own source very closely.

quote: It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision.

Wow! Again, your source endorses my approach!

quote: If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy.

Which my son was. Odd. Though your source says that it may be unnecessary, it clearly leaves the decision up to the parents, acknowledging that a number of factors (including medical, social and religious) influence the decision, which is ultimately the parents.
Nowhere does it emphatically caution against circumcision, Asher...only weighs in slightly on the con side, with ultimate responsibility left to the parent.

That's what happened with me and that's what I did.

Guess you need to read your defense more closely before you taint it with personal opinion and cite it as gospel.

	09-08-2002 03:20									#351
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak OK, Tandee...it's pretty obvious you just wanted others to rationalize the decision you already had made. You succeeded! Good for you!

Well, in this case assuming has only made an a$$ of you. I can't prove to you that I hadn't made up my mind yet, I don't care to.

quote: As far as bigots go, your bigotry toward your own husband's religious background is evidence enough for me that you don't know jack! Maybe you should think about what this means to him? Is it his child? I'd think he'd love the fact you came here instead of speaking with him and your doctor about it.

It's not about *his* religion. I don't think any religion is a reason to do something. I used to be Mormon, and was opposed to gay marriage, *even though* it completely defied my own logic. Looking back on this I see how scary it is to draw opinions blindly from your religion. Despite this however, I'm not bitter against my former church, I'm still very good friends with stolid Mormons. I'm not a bigot when it comes to religion, I've just made up my mind about it. And I used logic.

quote: Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in educational institutions...

Completely untrue. I just don't think public education in America is very competent. And I have a very good basis for this. I went there. I'm not opposed to my children going to school, I just don't know if I'll be able to afford private school, and I haven't found one I like yet. You are just assumption-man.

quote: so you must be one of those "doctors are bad" people too.

I *love* and appreicate competent doctors.

quote: And feel free not to immunize your kids...I'm sure Asher has plenty of solid evidence against that as well.

I h-a-v-n-'t d-e-c-i-d-e-d y-e-t. L-i-s-t-e-n t-o p-e-o-p-l-e w-h-e-n t-h-e-y t-a-l-k.

quote: Take your time on that immunization "research"

Well, you can be sure that it will take me farther than one doctor's mouth.

quote: What a twit.

Good then you shouldn't care what I decide to do, and therefore you may stop replying to this thread.

	09-08-2002 03:23									#352
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Hmmmm....ok...that was done. Potential benefits AND risks...seems you didn't read your own source very closely.

I read it word for word. I guess you didn't, since you obviously missed one of the last lines in the conclusions which said the risks outweigh the benefits:

quote: An objective examination of the published findings on circumcision in the scientific literature leads one to conclude that circumcision does more harm than good.

quote: Wow! Again, your source endorses my approach!

Hey, wow, so do I. I've already stated religious reasons are okay by me...

quote: Which my son was. Odd. Though your source says that it may be unnecessary, it clearly leaves the decision up to the parents, acknowledging that a number of factors (including medical, social and religious) influence the decision, which is ultimately the parents.

Of course it's up to the parents...no one said otherwise!

quote: Nowhere does it emphatically caution against circumcision, Asher...only weighs in slightly on the con side, with ultimate responsibility left to the parent. That's what happened with me and that's what I did. Guess you need to read your defense more closely before you taint it with personal opinion and cite it as gospel.

Perhaps you should read it all.
It goes through and lists all kinds of problems with circumcision, and even says point blank that it does more harm than good...

	09-08-2002 03:24									#353
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And spot on about taking the husband into account.

My son is more important than my husband in this decision. Maybe that is what you have lost sight of.

	09-08-2002 03:25									#354
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Obviously, your husband doesn't count. You are despicable.

	09-08-2002 03:26									#355
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Of course submissiveness is a result of social conditioning. Traits may play a part, but they are no where near the deciding factor. Look at me. I can change part of my nature drastically based on social conditions.

	09-08-2002 03:27									#356
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Not everyone is like you, Apoc, and it's dangerous to assume everyone is who they are because that's how you are who you are (if that makes sense).

Psychologists still debate about it to this day, nature vs. nurture, there is no answer yet, just opinions.

	09-08-2002 03:29									#357
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I have a sneaking suspicion that she dumped ck, because he stood up for himself.

Maybe you should ask "ck" and myself about this before you say something like that. We broke up because the long distance thing didn't work for us, and we had been growing apart for awhile. I love him very much and happen to know him much better than you do. As the only person who knows me in real life here, why don't you ask him what he thinks of me?

Well, finkian knows me too, but I don't know if he comes around any more.

	09-08-2002 03:34									#358
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Tandee-- Do your existing children get immunized? I hope so.
How do you judge what is competent or not? You aren't a doctor, and, by your own admission, don't have the education to support such assumptions?

I don't need to be interested in your situation as my permission to reply to this thread.

I'm concerned that you are talking out of both sides of your head--you are constantly contradicting yourself in regard to your husband, your children and even your own ability to make an informed decision about anything whatsoever.
I could give a rip about people who would even contemplate not getting their child immunized...that is so freaking backwards and idiotic. It is the kid I'm concerned about...you're so far gone and confused you're beyond hope.

Asher: my son has had no complications due to his circumcision. He's just fine. Time will tell, I guess.
You can't even acknowledge that the very article you quoted makes it very clear that there is no emphatic reason not to, if the parents have cultural reasons or even believe that there may be medical benefit, so I have no interest in debating with you. I made the decision knowing that there could have been direct complications, but weighed that against the possible benefit of lower STD transmission. Since there was no problem with the circumcision, my bet has paid off so far.

I'd also like to point out that once, long ago, the majority thought the earth was flat. They were wrong too.
Just because the crowd tells you something doesn't mean it is true...there is still no hard medical evidence to suggest anything but immediate detriment.

	09-08-2002 03:34									#359
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Asher Not everyone is like you, Apoc, and it's dangerous to assume everyone is who they are because that's how you are who you are (if that makes sense). Psychologists still debate about it to this day, nature vs. nurture, there is no answer yet, just opinions.

I know not everyone is like me. About a month ago I posted a thread about why very few people are like me. I'm just saying that nuture rules over nature in the end.

	09-08-2002 03:34									#360
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Who says he doesn't respect his religion, I'm MOrmon and I respect the religion, but I drink smoke, have pre-marital sex and drink caffeine. Just because I don't live it, doesn't mean I don't respect it.

I really don't want to start a fight with you, but as a former Mormon, I know that most Mormons (including the Prophet) would strongly disagree with you. You either are or you aren't. You can make mistakes, but if you're not trying not to anymore, well... And if you've done any of the above on more the one ocassion, and went to your bishop and told him, you would be promptly excommunicated and would have to wait at least a year before being allowed to be re-baptized.