09-08-2002 01:47									#271
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Just to throw my two cents in. By a remarkable coincidence I was thinking about this the other day. The girls I like really would not care which way I was anyway, 'cus that's how I choose them. I'm snipped, and I can quite honestly say that I do not know what I'm missing, and there's enough sensation there as it is.

If I could pick on my own, I'd go with the obvious and not do it, 'cus it's a lot of pain. But I don't/can't really care that it happened to me anyway.

My suggestion is to make a choice and then have no regrets. I still can't see any reason to do it, though.

On a side note, babies are not even given pain killers even for open-heart surgery. This operation cannot be that bad.

	09-08-2002 01:50									#272
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They aren't given pain killers for many operations, not because it doesn't hurt, but because there's too many complications for giving babies anesthetic.

Doctors have monitored vital signs and done studies on extreme pain during circumcisions, these are areas previously done only in a lab with rats...

	09-08-2002 01:50									#273
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Hate to break it to you guys, but the last person I'm going to entrust my son's future penile health to is a gay man.

As a gay man, I can assure you that I am quite well versed on current data regarding penile health. I take it very seriously, thank you very much. Dismissing my arguments because of my sexual orientation is offensively bigoted.

Since we're going down that road, I think you are just hell-bent on justifying your decision so you don't have to fret over whether or not you subjected your son to a needless bodily mutilation.

And should your son happen to be gay, then the penile health of a gay man will certainly be very relevant.

	09-08-2002 01:52									#274
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak How about the fact that our OBGYN suggested it strongly, as in her opinion the evidence was inconclusive enough to warrant caution?

Exactly.

quote: I suppose you know more about babies than a woman who has delivered hundreds of them, eh? Is there no end to your magnificent supply of wisdom?

I don't think it's ever a good idea to just rely on what an "expert" says. On a related subject, I once saw a story on one of those evening magazine shows about two twin boys that were circumcized and one of them had too much cut off, so they decided to take the rest off and raise him as a girl. One of their biggest reasons for doing this was the popularity of a psychologist who said that gender was based on upbringing, therefore your children could be whatever you wanted them to be. Of course, this was years ago. The boy grew up as a girl, always knowing he was a male. He's pretty messed up right about now. It was also a story about children who are born with abnormal genitals. Usually they quickly have surgery to make them look normal. There was girl who had a clitoris so large that it almost looked like a penis. Her parents decided to leave it that way, and she is very glad they did. She turned out to be a lesbian, and said that it resulted in much more sexual pleasure for her and her partners. Most doctors still think you should have surgery to fix these abnormalities (imagine how much those people would get made fun of, right?). I think it's always best to make up our own minds. And OBGYNs walk out the door after the baby is born. If there are complications from circumcision, the parents would call the pediatrician, not the OBGYN.

	09-08-2002 01:53									#275
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Hmmmm....you must be the exception and not the rule, otherwise, all your preaching about penile health, condoms, etc, would be universally accepted and the evidence of a massive plague among gay men wouldn't be there to confront us...out of all the sexual subgroups, I certainly wouldn't take the advice of a representative of a community that is dying in droves due to irresponsible prevention of sexual diseases.

Here's another study...seems pretty well researched as well:

How does male circumcision protect against HIV infection?
Robert Szabo, medical resident a, Roger V Short, professor b.

a Faculty of Medicine, Monash University, Wellington Road, Melbourne 3168, Australia, b Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Melbourne, Royal Women's Hospital, 132 Grattan Street, Melbourne 3053, Australia

Correspondence to: R V Short


In his otherwise excellent review of the AIDS epidemic in the 21st century, Fauci presented no new strategies for preventing the spread of the disease.1 He made no mention of male circumcision, yet there is now compelling epidemiological evidence from over 40 studies which shows that male circumcision provides significant protection against HIV infection; circumcised males are two to eight times less likely to become infected with HIV.2 Furthermore, circumcision also protects against other sexually transmitted infections, such as syphilis and gonorrhoea, 3 4 and since people who have a sexually transmitted infection are two to five times more likely to become infected with HIV,5 circumcision may be even more protective. The most dramatic evidence of the protective effect of circumcision comes from a new study of couples in Uganda who had discordant HIV status; in this study the woman was HIV positive and her male partner was not.6 No new infections occurred among any of the 50 circumcised men over 30 months, whereas 40 of 137 uncircumcised men became infected during this time. Both groups had been given free access to HIV testing, intensive instruction about preventing infection, and free condoms (which were continuously available), but 89% of the men never used condoms, and condom use did not seem to influence the rate of transmission of HIV. These findings should focus the spotlight of scientific attention onto the foreskin. Why does its removal reduce a man's susceptibility to HIV infection?




Summary points


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of men who are HIV positive have been infected through the penis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is conclusive epidemiological evidence to show that uncircumcised men are at a much greater risk of becoming infected with HIV than circumcised men

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The inner surface of the foreskin contains Langerhans' cells with HIV receptors; these cells are likely to be the primary point of viral entry into the penis of an uncircumcised man

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Male circumcision should be seriously considered as an additional means of preventing HIV in all countries with a high prevalence of infection

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The development of HIV receptor blockers, which could be applied to the penis or vagina before intercourse, might provide a new form of HIV prevention




Methods

To compile the information for this review a Medline search was done using the terms circumcision, HIV, Langerhans' cells, penis, foreskin, and prepuce, and extensive email correspondence with other researchers was also undertaken. Histological observations were carried out on samples of penile tissue obtained from 13 perfusion fixed cadavers of men aged 60-96 years, seven of whom had been circumcised.

The pathogenesis of sexually acquired HIV infection


Between 75% and 85% of cases of HIV infection worldwide have probably occurred during sexual activity.7 Most cases of primary HIV infection are thought to involve HIV binding initially to the CD4 and CCR5 receptors found on antigen presenting cellswhich include macrophages, Langerhans' cells, and dendritic cellsin the genital and rectal mucosa.

The most widely accepted model for the sexual transmission of HIV is based on infection of the genital tract of rhesus macaques with simian immunodeficiency virus. 8 9 After female macaques are inoculated intravaginally with simian immunodeficiency virus, the virus targets the Langerhans' cells located in the vaginal mucosa. Once infected, these cells fuse with adjacent CD4 lymphocytes and migrate to deeper tissues. Within two days of infection, the virus can be detected in the internal iliac lymph nodes and shortly thereafter in systemic lymph nodes. This ultimately leads to a fatal infection.

Similarly, infection in male macaques occurs when simian immunodeficiency virus is inoculated into the penile urethra or onto the foreskin; the same sequence of cellular events involving the infection of Langerhans' cells is then likely to occur.9 Infected Langerhans' cells have also been detected in the penile mucosa of male rhesus macaques that have chronic simian immunodeficiency virus infection.9 In humans, histological studies have identified antigen presenting cells in the mucosa of the inner foreskin and urethra.10 Therefore it seems likely that antigen presenting cells at these mucosal sites are the primary target for HIV in men.

In vitro studies have shown that the CD4 receptor is generally necessary, although insufficient on its own, to permit HIV-1 to enter host cells.11 The entry of HIV-1 into cells requires an additional chemokine receptor, usually CCR5, although CXCR4 is used by cells that become infected during the later stages of the disease.12 After primary infection occurs, the virus mutates, which allows it to utilise other chemokine receptors, such as CXCR4, and thus spread to a variety of cell types. However, more than 99% of HIV-1 isolates from acutely infected patients are homologous, indicating that one specific variant is likely to be responsible for most cases of primary HIV infection.13 HIV variants that are transmitted to other individuals almost invariably use CCR5 as a coreceptor and are therefore named R5 viruses, to reflect their specific requirement for a coreceptor.14





(Credit: WELLCOME TRUST)

Circumcision in ancient Egypt shown on a relief from Saqqara (c 2200 BC). Used with the permission of the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London





How HIV enters the penis

About 70% of men infected with HIV have acquired the virus through vaginal sex, and a smaller number have acquired it from insertive anal intercourse.7 Thus, on a global scale most men who are HIV positive have acquired the virus via the penis. This raises questions of how HIV enters the penis and why men who are uncircumcised are potentially more susceptible to becoming infected with HIV.

The uncircumcised penis consists of the penile shaft, glans, urethral meatus, inner and outer surface of the foreskin, and the frenulum, the thin band connecting the inner foreskin to the ventral aspect of the glans. A keratinised, stratified squamous epithelium covers the penile shaft and outer surface of the foreskin. This provides a protective barrier against HIV infection. In contrast, the inner mucosal surface of the foreskin is not keratinised15 and is rich in Langerhans' cells,10 making it particularly susceptible to the virus. This is particularly important because during heterosexual intercourse the foreskin is pulled back down the shaft of the penis, and the whole inner surface of the foreskin is exposed to vaginal secretions, providing a large area where HIV transmission could take place.

There is controversy about whether the epithelium of the glans in uncircumcised men is keratinised; some authors claim that it is not,15 but we have examined the glans of seven circumcised and six uncircumcised men, and found the epithelia to be equally keratinised. In circumcised males only the distal penile urethra is lined with a mucosal epithelium. However, this is unlikely to be a common site of infection because it contains comparatively few Langerhans' cells.10

Ulcerative or inflammatory lesions of the penile urethra, foreskin, frenulum, or glans that are caused by other sexually transmitted infections may provide additional potential routes for HIV transmission. In uncircumcised males, the highly vascular frenulum is particularly susceptible to trauma during intercourse, and lesions produced by other sexually transmitted infections commonly occur there. Thus, male circumcision further reduces the risk of infection by reducing the synergy that normally exists between HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.5

Conclusions


Of the estimated 50 million people infected with HIV worldwide, about half are men, most of whom have become infected through their penises. The inner surface of the foreskin, which is rich in HIV receptors, and the frenulum, a common site for trauma and other sexually transmitted infections, must be regarded as the most probable sites for viral entry in primary HIV infection in men. Although condoms must remain the first choice for preventing the sexual transmission of HIV, they are often not used consistently or correctly, they may break during use, and there may be strong cultural and aesthetic objections to using them. Cultural and religious attitudes towards male circumcision are even more deeply held, but in the light of the evidence presented here circumcising males seems highly desirable, especially in countries with a high prevalence of HIV infection. Although neonatal circumcision is easy to perform, and has a low incidence of complications,16 it would be 15-20 years before a programme of circumcision had any effect on HIV transmission rates. Circumcision at puberty, as practised by many Muslim communities, would be the most immediately effective intervention for reducing HIV transmission since it would be done before young men are likely to become sexually active.

It may also be time to re-think the definition of "safe sex." Since the penis is the probable site of viral entry, neither infected semen nor vaginal secretions should be allowed to come in contact with the penis, particularly in uncircumcised males. Thus, mutual male masturbation during which a penis is exposed to the potentially infected semen of another male should be regarded as risky sexual behaviour.

New preventive strategies are needed that could be used by men or women before the onset of intercourse. The disadvantage of topical virucides, such as nonoxinol 9, is that they may cause local irritation and thus increase susceptibility to HIV infection. The development of topically active agents that could block HIV binding sites, such as CCR5, and which could be applied to the penis or vagina to create a "chemical condom," might be more effective and acceptable than any mechanical barrier or surgical intervention.

Acknowledgments


We thank Professor John Mills for helpful comments on an early draft of the manuscript and Professor Daine Alcorn and the staff of the Department of Anatomy, University of Melbourne, for supplying and processing the specimens from human cadavers.


Contributors: RS reviewed all the relevant literature, carried out the histological examination of the specimens, and wrote the first draft of the manuscript. RVS initiated the study and participated in redrafting of the paper. Both authors will act as guarantors.

Footnotes


Funding: None.


Competing interests: None declared.

References

1. Fauci AS. The AIDS epidemic: considerations for the 21st century. N Engl J Med 1999; 341: 1046-1050[Full Text].
2. Halperin DT, Bailey RC. Male circumcision and HIV infection: 10 years and counting. Lancet 1999; 354: 1813-1815[Medline].
3. Cook LS, Koutsky LA, Holmes KK. Circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases. Am J Public Health 1994; 84: 197-201[Abstract].
4. Moses S, Bailey RC, Ronald AR. Male circumcision: assessment of health benefits and risks. Sex Transm Infect 1998; 74: 368-373[Abstract].
5. Fleming DT, Wasserheit JN. From epidemiological synergy to public health policy and practice: the contribution of other sexually transmitted diseases to sexual transmission of HIV infection. Sex Transm Infect 1999; 75: 3-17[Abstract].
6. Quinn TC, Wawer MJ, Se****ambo N, Serwadda D, Li C, Wabwire-Mangen F, et al. Viral load and heterosexual transmission of human immunodeficiency virus type 1. N Engl J Med 2000; 342: 921-929[Abstract/Full Text].
7. Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS. The HIV/AIDS situation in mid 1996: global and regional highlights. Geneva: United Nations, 1996. (UNAIDS fact sheet 1 July 1996.)
8. Spira AI, Marx PA, Patterson BK, Mahoney J, Koup RA, Wolinsky SM, et al. Cellular targets of infection and route of viral dissemination after an intravaginal inoculation of simian immunodeficiency virus into rhesus macaques. J Exp Med 1996; 183: 215-225[Abstract].
9. Miller CJ. Localization of simian immunodeficiency virus-infected cells in the genital tract of male and female rhesus macaques. J Reprod Immunol 1998; 41: 331-339[Medline].
10. Hussain LA, Lehner T. Comparative investigation of Langerhans cells and potential receptors for HIV in oral, genitourinary and rectal epithelia. Immunology 1995; 85: 475-484[Medline].
11. Zaitseva M, Blauvelt A, Lee S, Lapham CK, Klaus-Kovtun V, Mostowski H, et al. Expression and function of CCR5 and CXCR4 on human Langerhans cells and macrophages: implications for HIV primary infection. Nature Med 1997; 3: 1369-1375[Medline].
12. Dragic T, Litwin V, Allaway GP, Martin SR, Huang Y, Nagashima KA, et al. HIV-1 entry into CD4+ cells is mediated by the chemokine receptor CC-CKR-5. Nature 1996; 381: 667-673[Medline].
13. Zhu T, Mo H, Wang N, Nam DS, Cao Y, Koup RA, et al. Genotypic and phenotypic characterization of HIV-1 patients with primary infection. Science 1993; 261: 1179-1181[Medline].
14. Kahn JO, Walker BD. Acute human immunodeficiency virus type 1 infection. N Engl J Med 1998; 339: 33-39[Full Text].
15. Barreto J, Caballero C, Cubilla A. Penis. In: Sternberg SS, ed. Histology for pathologists. 2nd ed. Philadelphia: Lippincott-Raven, 1997.
16. Morris B. In favour of circumcision. Sydney: University of New South Wales Press, 1999.


(Accepted 11 May 2000)

	09-08-2002 01:54									#276
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tandeetaylor: I saw that too, I think it was on Dateline a long time ago.

	09-08-2002 01:56									#277
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Sneak...I don't think you get it.
There are many studies that go both ways (28 total at last count). When these studies are combined, the net result is still a higher percentage chance of circumcised men from being infected.

It's a controversial subject still. You're not being cautious by cutting off his foreskin, you're increasing the chance of infection in the operation, have a chance of the operation being botched, and at the same time may also be increasing his chances of getting HIV.

	09-08-2002 01:57									#278
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Hate to break it to you guys, but the last person I'm going to entrust my son's future penile health to is a gay man.

Woah... I don't think that has any place in a discussion.

I don't mean to take sides or make a fight bigger, but in most issues, there is a right and a wrong answer. You can't blame someone for taking a side, and not yielding it when incompetent and incomplete arguments are presented.

	09-08-2002 01:59									#279
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"I know this sounds bad, but my when husband and I can't agree, I get my way. I'd prefer it the other way. I'm sure that I can convince him in three months, considering the progress I already made in one night."

Don't know from what culture your husband's family is from, but in some muslim cultures the mother is expected to have more influence over the females while the father is expected to have more influence over the males. They might see this as meddling or you acting outside your sphere unnecessarily.

Anyway, not all things that are bound up in religion are strictly religious. A lot of what supports religion is tradition, ceremony, family and way of life, rather. I find it helpful to distinguish among all of these.

Good luck!

	09-08-2002 01:59									#280
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No, I base my statement on the fact that I would prefer a medical professional, who has made her life's work the care of children and invested a lot of time and money in that pursuit, to advise me on the safety of my child, over two men who do not have children and belong to a group of people whose mortality rates do not reflect a true understanding or adherance to sexual safety.

	09-08-2002 01:59									#281
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Hmmmm....you must be the exception and not the rule, otherwise, all your preaching about penile health, condoms, etc, would be universally accepted and the evidence of a massive plague among gay men wouldn't be there to confront us...out of all the sexual subgroups, I certainly wouldn't take the advice of a representative of a community that is dying in droves due to irresponsible prevention of sexual diseases.

Most persons infected with HIV are heterosexual, so by your logic, you should listen to gay men first. Also, transmission rates of HIV are highest in heterosexual women. And "massive plague among gay men" is certainly hyperbole. Saying I'm the exception is not true--the VAST majority of gay men are not infected with HIV. And it is exactly because HIV is a significant issue in the gay community that responsible gay men such as myself are well-versed on the subject.

I'm not surprised at your erroneous thinking, though--such thought seems to be what guided you into lopping off your son's foreskin, too.

	09-08-2002 02:02									#282
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About the pain, I'm almost positive the babies just don't feel it. I remember this from the Discovery channel show about operations on babies a long time ago, because it was particularly interesting. The pain just doesn't register as anything bad to them at that point, is my guess, but I do remember the show saying that there is no evidence that it disturbs them.

I imagine if it were so bad, then there would be some baby anesthesia out on the market (just a guess). I don't really want to do research on the internet for this, though, so do forgive me if I am wrong.

	09-08-2002 02:02									#283
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak No, I base my statement on the fact that I would prefer a medical professional, who has made her life's work the care of children and invested a lot of time and money in that pursuit, to advise me on the safety of my child

Make up your mind, Sneak, is she an OB/GYN or a Pediatrician? Surely you'd know they're not the same thing, right?

quote: over two men who do not have children and belong to a group of people whose mortality rates do not reflect a true understanding or adherance to sexual safety.

You're such a moron. Unbelievable. Hopefully your wife has the brains in the family.

	09-08-2002 02:04									#284
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Good thing there aren't any black men here, I'd hate to see what SS would say to them, considering they have the highest HIV infection rate.

	09-08-2002 02:05									#285
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The per capita infection rate of heteros to homosexuals is what is important, not the "total" number infected.

In any case, the deed is done and I'm perfectly fine with it. If my son does turn out to be gay, that's not a problem either.
I will continue to defer to medical professional's opinions on these and other subjects as long as there is not definitive evidence to the contrary. There is currently a groundswell of anti-vaccination sentiment as well...and I'm not about to stop having my son vaccinated. As there is no strong evidence either way, I asked a professional (and the Pediatrician agreed, BTW) and went with her opinion.
I agonized over the decision and was present when the procedure took place...I did not dodge a thing.
As I've said before, you cannot know until it is a real concern, in the meantime, feel free to sit in lofty judgement about something that will most likely never have any sort of personal impact on you personally.

When he's old enough, we can have my son post here and tell you all about his horrific trauma and deep feelings of marginalization at what his cruel and thoughtless Cro-mag of a father did to him.

	09-08-2002 02:05									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer About the pain, I'm almost positive the babies just don't feel it.

This Doctor on the American Council of Science and Health disagrees:
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pr...904/circno.html

To quote some excerpts:

quote: During the operation, the infant's blood oxygen drops. His heart rate and cortisol level (a measure of stress) shoot up. His crying becomes high-pitched, such that one would observe only when a baby is in intense pain. Then he may completely dissociate (a response similar to severe posttraumatic stress disorder) and become quiet—giving up because no one has rescued him. Immediate complications of the operation can include hemorrhage (sometimes fatal or requiring a blood transfusion); minor infections; deadly infections such as meningitis, gangrene, and septicemia (blood poisoning); partial or complete amputation of the penis; urinary retention leading to renal failure; and rupture of the bladder or stomach. The vast majority of neonatal circumcisions are performed without anesthesia. Using local anesthesia during the operation has been disappointing. Research has shown that local anesthesia does not prevent, but merely moderates, the cortisol elevation. Furthermore, local anesthesia does not affect postoperative pain, such as that due to the newborn's urinating and defecating into the open penile wound. In any case, the external application or injection of any local anesthetic involves risk to the patient. After the operation the baby, exhausted and apprehensive, is returned to his mother. He has difficulty quieting down after disturbances. The time he spends in dreamless (non-REM) sleep is increased. He is less available for interaction with his mother. This hinders the establishment of breast-feeding and maternal bonding and thus leads to weight loss and jaundice. Once he has been brought home, the baby's risk of certain local skin problems—penile infections, inflammation of the penile meatus (passage), and narrowing of the meatus, for example—is higher than that of noncircumcised infants. Half the time, his glans will not be fully exposed and this will prompt further surgery. The operation's psychological impact on newborns is largely unknown, but performing circumcision without an anesthetic has enabled studying the parameters of extreme pain in experiments that researchers would have been prohibited from performing on lab animals. Researchers who have studied such parameters in infants have concluded that newborns are more susceptible to painful stimuli than are older infants. Recent research suggests that the operation may have long-lasting effects on the patient's perception of and sensitivity to painful stimuli. The main structures for memory are functional in newborns, and remembrance of pain may figure in pain perception later. For days after the surgery, the circumcised boy will experience a greater change in heart rate when his blood is drawn than will a noncircumcised boy. And regardless of whether an anesthetic was used during circumcision, he will cry louder and longer during inoculations months later.

	09-08-2002 02:06									#287
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak The per capita infection rate of heteros to homosexuals is what is important, not the "total" number infected.

Sneak, the topic has nothing to do with sexuality, grow the hell up.

It has to do with circumcision, you don't even know what sexuality your son is right now anyway.

	09-08-2002 02:07									#288
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Hmmmm....you must be the exception and not the rule, otherwise, all your preaching about penile health, condoms, etc, would be universally accepted and the evidence of a massive plague among gay men wouldn't be there to confront us...out of all the sexual subgroups, I certainly wouldn't take the advice of a representative of a community that is dying in droves due to irresponsible prevention of sexual diseases.

Boris, do you have AIDS? What?! You mean it's possible for a gay man not to have AIDS? Is it even possible for a straight man to have it? Inconceivable! (Princess Bride!)

	09-08-2002 02:07									#289
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak The per capita infection rate of heteros to homosexuals is what is important, not the "total" number infected.

And you should know that infection rates today have as much to do with race and social status as they do sexual orientation, if not much more. Middle-class, white gay men are one of the few groups where HIV transmission has steadily declined.

	09-08-2002 02:13									#290
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Hey...you want to twist facts to support your cause, fine. I have the right to do the same.

Anyone here who wants to take a civilian gay man's opinion about what is best for my son's penis and health over a doctor's is free to do so.
I will not and have the brass to admit it and explain why. If you don't like that, don't worry about me wringing tears out of my pillow at night.

Tandee--I don't recall saying Boris had AIDs or straight men didn't, just that his opinion was of less value to me because of his de facto inclusion in a group that is tragically promiscuous.

And yes, Boris, I know plenty about your community. When you hang out with straight married couples AND gay men, be they "monogamous" or committed, the level of sexual dalliance from one group to the other is quite obvious.
You are the deluded one if you deny that. Or maybe my city is just full of abnormally promiscuous gay men with multiple partners?

	09-08-2002 02:15									#291
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Only a moron dismisses mountains of medical evidence because the person who brought it to their attention was not heterosexual.

And no offense, but you took the advice of an OB/GYN about what to do to your BOY's PENIS after he was BORN? What the hell? Don't you know what an OB/GYN *IS*?

That's like going to a car salesman and asking him what kind of fuel to use to go to the moon!

	09-08-2002 02:17									#292
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Don't know from what culture your husband's family is from, but in some muslim cultures the mother is expected to have more influence over the females while the father is expected to have more influence over the males.

Coincidentally, when we were last with any members of his family, they were talking about how if we had a girl, she would be "Daddy's baby" and if we had a boy, he would be "Mommy's boy." Not that I agree, I just don't think they would see it that way.

quote: They might see this as meddling or you acting outside your sphere unnecessarily.

And I might view their interference in the same light. I hate to use Seinfeld's Guide to Relationships, but I have the upper hand!

quote: Anyway, not all things that are bound up in religion are strictly religious. A lot of what supports religion is tradition, ceremony, family and way of life, rather. I find it helpful to distinguish among all of these.

I definitely think it does have more to do with tradition for my husband. His religion didn't stop him from drinking or sleeping with girls before he was married, I don't see why it would make him circumcize his son. I just need to help him sort through his religious/atheistic feelings and elminate his illogical throwbacks. I actually even talked to him about pork last night, and he says he just doesn't like (yes, he's tried it), but I don't believe him, and I told him he still has to try pork chops, and he said he would.

	09-08-2002 02:17									#293
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quote: I know this sounds bad, but my when husband and I can't agree, I get my way. I'd prefer it the other way. I'm sure that I can convince him in three months, considering the progress I already made in one night.

All I'd say is don't get too cocky. You wouldn't want to be a single mother raising that kid, would you?

	09-08-2002 02:23									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Eroberer About the pain, I'm almost positive the babies just don't feel it.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why not.

quote: I imagine if it were so bad, then there would be some baby anesthesia out on the market (just a guess).

Babies can't complain, they can only cry. And they do that anyway right? I think that there is a significant chance that it is just impossible to safely "put a baby under." I mean, how many "Just for Baby" aspirins do you remember being on the market? Even the children medicine says you shouldn't give it to children under age 2.

	09-08-2002 02:23									#295
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Super unleaded.

	09-08-2002 02:24									#296
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Asher, what real experience do you have in anything? Do you have children? Have you had to make any real decisions about anything, ever? Do you pay rent, pay a mortgage, have a car payment, pay your tuition, etc.?
Give me one good reason to give credence to anything you say at all?
I listen to my peers, not hyperactive teens with too much free time on their hands.
I'd love to be there the day that the realities of life come crashing down on your head.
In the meantime, enjoy your false belief that you have all the answers, because it will be a short lived one once you are on your own.

	09-08-2002 02:27									#297
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Tandee--I don't recall saying Boris had AIDs or straight men didn't, just that his opinion was of less value to me because of his de facto inclusion in a group that is tragically promiscuous.

Even if that is true, it doesn't mean that HE is, and that's what I was saying.

quote: Or maybe my city is just full of abnormally promiscuous gay men with multiple partners?

I think unattached straight men can be pretty promiscuous.

	09-08-2002 02:30									#298
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Asher, what real experience do you have in anything?

What does this have to do with medical fact?! Whether I have children or not does not change the world's tilt, Sneak!

You need to stop using ad hominems whenever you want to argue with me. Whether I pay rent or have kids doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the medical facts behind circumcision. Get real.

	09-08-2002 02:30									#299
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak And using condoms is only a preventative, not a cure, as I can attest that condoms often break.

You know, I have been using good old "rubber johnnies" for a long time now. I've never broken one.

Perhaps it's luck. Personally I think it's because of my special secret. It's called "foreplay".

	09-08-2002 02:32									#300
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The bottom line to all of this is that this is a grown up decision. I find it abhorrent that you would come to a gaming site and ask the opinions of a bunch of people with no real life experience, especially in relation to the specific topic.
I did my research 13 months ago and engaged medical professionals in my decision.
Perhaps you might consider that as an option?
I certainly wouldn't defer to any opinions here...